Local Broadcasting/Media

[Snowcool08]

WCCO photographer arrested at Franklin and Nicollet, I believe. State patrol.

He has been released.

It has to be tough for the cops in moments like that. There are protesters and rioters who make fake credentials and flash them to police to get free. I"m sure they hear numerous times throughout the night that a reporter is with so and so network. It's almost easier to take them into custody, then verify credentials before letting them go.

[The Rube]

Well, the protesters did the traditional Minnesota Goodbye, but they dispersed. Kudos to them, and Walz for enforcing stuff/following rules. Tonight went as well as one could have hoped for.

[team22tank]

The Looters are massive Tools and took advantage of a situation. Tonight they got owned and they should have got owned 24-48 hours ago.

Jacob is a massive failure as he tried to appease to these criminals.

He let “his” city burn for two days.

He’s done.

[kmd]

Not sure what that has to do with Local Broadcasting/Media, so let's stop things here.

[Slap Shot]

[edit]

Gonna bite my tongue.

[Karlsson]

[edit]

Gonna bite my tongue.

Ditto.

And yes, I'm a provincial putz.

[Zwak]

WCCO photographer arrested at Franklin and Nicollet, I believe. State patrol.

He has been released.

It has to be tough for the cops in moments like that. There are protesters and rioters who make fake credentials and flash them to police to get free. I"m sure they hear numerous times throughout the night that a reporter is with so and so network. It's almost easier to take them into custody, then verify credentials before letting them go.

I agree with this. I hate to see journalists get arrested but it would be very easy to fake credentials. I think it helped Mike Max last night that he is a recognizable face.

[Jupiter]

Are ya done with the political BS?

[Armadillo]

Wait, I haven't expounded on the intricacies of the Liberal Party of Canada vs. Parti Quebecois!!!

[The Rube]

Vote for Randee! Just say whoa!

[Bigbeer]

Man, Mike Max is managing to put himself right in the middle of a hotspot every night.

[Snowcool08]

Man, Mike Max is managing to put himself right in the middle of a hotspot every night.

Every time he gets in a sticky situation, I just hear Amelia's voice saying "Maxy be safe."

[Armadillo]

They have a prime opportunity to reunite The Sports Show. Imagine Max, Reusse, Sid, and Dark Star (RIP) commentating this.

[Bigbeer]

Man, Mike Max is managing to put himself right in the middle of a hotspot every night.

Every time he gets in a sticky situation, I just hear Amelia's voice saying "Maxy be safe."

I think he’s gotten tear gassed at some point every night.

[Kelly Red]

Man, Mike Max is managing to put himself right in the middle of a hotspot every night.

Every time he gets in a sticky situation, I just hear Amelia's voice saying "Maxy be safe."

I think he’s gotten tear gassed at some point every night.

What a great future pick up line

[Zwak]

Man, Mike Max is managing to put himself right in the middle of a hotspot every night.

Every time he gets in a sticky situation, I just hear Amelia's voice saying "Maxy be safe."

I think he’s gotten tear gassed at some point every night.

What a great future pick up line

“They call me Gas Max.”

[Armadillo]

Man, Mike Max is managing to put himself right in the middle of a hotspot every night.

Every time he gets in a sticky situation, I just hear Amelia's voice saying "Maxy be safe."

I think he’s gotten tear gassed at some point every night.

What a great future pick up line

“They call me Gas Max.”

Probably should tweak that a bit before deploying it.

[Snowcool08]

What I learned tonight watching the news. Gas at 38th and Chicago is $1.89. Bobby and Steve’s on Washington and 35W has it at $2.19, but you get a free car wash with a fill up. Not sure if it’s worth it.

[Bonin21]

Do the math based on your tank size

[Snowcool08]

What about the wait? That has to be a long line.

[Armadillo]

That place is just so damn fascinating.

[kmd]

What I learned tonight watching the news. Gas at 38th and Chicago is $1.89. Bobby and Steve’s on Washington and 35W has it at $2.19, but you get a free car wash with a fill up. Not sure if it’s worth it.

It's been at $1.69 for a while at the BP at Lyndale/36th.

[SkiUMahLaw]

Yes I listened and have been listening to police scanner.
This is crazy that this should even be happening.
Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death. After watching the video on the news this is pure evil he is a devil in my book and a waste of oxygen on this planet..Unless he is charged with 1st degree murder and the other 3 are charged this could spiral out of control around the country very quickly and is destroying the metro area here already.

I understand what you are saying but 1st degree murder charges just won’t fit. @SkiUMahLaw can correct me if I’m wrong but 1st degree murder has to show premeditation and that the person planned the murder before committing the crime.

Further charges can be added as the investigation progresses.

I would not say that first degree murder charges won't fit necessarily, but such a charge requires a great deal of evidence of intent that will be difficult to obtain, especially in a short time window. Even then, it is quite a high-risk charge, especially for a police officer-- the law does give police a lot of latitude in exercising authority, and if the cop felt threatened in any way (by the victim, or the crowd), then law generally OKs the response (Noor case, notwithstanding).

In contrast, third degree murder makes intent essentially irrelevant, and only goes to whether the response was reasonably under the circumstances. IMHO, it will be an uphill battle for the cop to get off.

[GoldenRube]

Yes I listened and have been listening to police scanner.
This is crazy that this should even be happening.
Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death. After watching the video on the news this is pure evil he is a devil in my book and a waste of oxygen on this planet..Unless he is charged with 1st degree murder and the other 3 are charged this could spiral out of control around the country very quickly and is destroying the metro area here already.

I understand what you are saying but 1st degree murder charges just won’t fit. @SkiUMahLaw can correct me if I’m wrong but 1st degree murder has to show premeditation and that the person planned the murder before committing the crime.

Further charges can be added as the investigation progresses.

I would not say that first degree murder charges won't fit necessarily, but such a charge requires a great deal of evidence of intent that will be difficult to obtain, especially in a short time window. Even then, it is quite a high-risk charge, especially for a police officer-- the law does give police a lot of latitude in exercising authority, and if the cop felt threatened in any way (by the victim, or the crowd), then law generally OKs the response (Noor case, notwithstanding).

In contrast, third degree murder makes intent essentially irrelevant, and only goes to whether the response was reasonably under the circumstances. IMHO, it will be an uphill battle for the cop to get off.

is it still an uphill battle if the autopsy report shows he didn't die of suffocation? How does the fact that Floyd had a heart condition and was maybe on drugs play into the verdict? Does it give him a chance to get off? God help us all if he's found innocent. What we've seen the past few days will be nothing compared what a not guilty verdict will incite.

[Orion]

Yes I listened and have been listening to police scanner.
This is crazy that this should even be happening.
Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death. After watching the video on the news this is pure evil he is a devil in my book and a waste of oxygen on this planet..Unless he is charged with 1st degree murder and the other 3 are charged this could spiral out of control around the country very quickly and is destroying the metro area here already.

I understand what you are saying but 1st degree murder charges just won’t fit. @SkiUMahLaw can correct me if I’m wrong but 1st degree murder has to show premeditation and that the person planned the murder before committing the crime.

Further charges can be added as the investigation progresses.

I would not say that first degree murder charges won't fit necessarily, but such a charge requires a great deal of evidence of intent that will be difficult to obtain, especially in a short time window. Even then, it is quite a high-risk charge, especially for a police officer-- the law does give police a lot of latitude in exercising authority, and if the cop felt threatened in any way (by the victim, or the crowd), then law generally OKs the response (Noor case, notwithstanding).

In contrast, third degree murder makes intent essentially irrelevant, and only goes to whether the response was reasonably under the circumstances. IMHO, it will be an uphill battle for the cop to get off.

Do you happen to know what the difference is in regards to the penalty?

[SkiUMahLaw]

Yes I listened and have been listening to police scanner.
This is crazy that this should even be happening.
Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death. After watching the video on the news this is pure evil he is a devil in my book and a waste of oxygen on this planet..Unless he is charged with 1st degree murder and the other 3 are charged this could spiral out of control around the country very quickly and is destroying the metro area here already.

I understand what you are saying but 1st degree murder charges just won’t fit. @SkiUMahLaw can correct me if I’m wrong but 1st degree murder has to show premeditation and that the person planned the murder before committing the crime.

Further charges can be added as the investigation progresses.

I would not say that first degree murder charges won't fit necessarily, but such a charge requires a great deal of evidence of intent that will be difficult to obtain, especially in a short time window. Even then, it is quite a high-risk charge, especially for a police officer-- the law does give police a lot of latitude in exercising authority, and if the cop felt threatened in any way (by the victim, or the crowd), then law generally OKs the response (Noor case, notwithstanding).

In contrast, third degree murder makes intent essentially irrelevant, and only goes to whether the response was reasonably under the circumstances. IMHO, it will be an uphill battle for the cop to get off.

is it still an uphill battle if the autopsy report shows he didn't die of suffocation? How does the fact that Floyd had a heart condition and was maybe on drugs play into the verdict? Does it give him a chance to get off? God help us all if he's found innocent. What we've seen the past few days will be nothing compared what a not guilty verdict will incite.

The question was the use of the force technique itself. Was it reasonable under the circumstances, or was it eminently dangerous and indicative of a depraved mind? Nevermind Mr. Floyd's "eggshell skull" (term of art in law school circles indicating preexisting medical conditions), but the prosecution can show the video and stay quiet for 9 minutes (which would feel like an eternity), which would essentially indicate the action and how long it continued on for would be unreasonable for anyone. I would be surprised if any jurors think they could have survived themselves if they were under a knee for 9 minutes, because that is essentially the test. Because of that, the drugs/condition don't matter. That is not the case in 1st degree/2nd degree charges, however.

(I also heard from a former cop who thought the autopsy missed some things that would have been likely to have occurred in that situation, for what it is worth).

[SkiUMahLaw]

Yes I listened and have been listening to police scanner.
This is crazy that this should even be happening.
Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death. After watching the video on the news this is pure evil he is a devil in my book and a waste of oxygen on this planet..Unless he is charged with 1st degree murder and the other 3 are charged this could spiral out of control around the country very quickly and is destroying the metro area here already.

I understand what you are saying but 1st degree murder charges just won’t fit. @SkiUMahLaw can correct me if I’m wrong but 1st degree murder has to show premeditation and that the person planned the murder before committing the crime.

Further charges can be added as the investigation progresses.

I would not say that first degree murder charges won't fit necessarily, but such a charge requires a great deal of evidence of intent that will be difficult to obtain, especially in a short time window. Even then, it is quite a high-risk charge, especially for a police officer-- the law does give police a lot of latitude in exercising authority, and if the cop felt threatened in any way (by the victim, or the crowd), then law generally OKs the response (Noor case, notwithstanding).

In contrast, third degree murder makes intent essentially irrelevant, and only goes to whether the response was reasonably under the circumstances. IMHO, it will be an uphill battle for the cop to get off.

Do you happen to know what the difference is in regards to the penalty?

1st degree- up to life
2nd degree- up to 40 years
3rd degree- up to 25 years
Manslaughter 1- up to 15 years
Manslaughter 2- up to 10 years

Keep in mind a cop who is in prison for murder is not going to be treated kindly by fellow inmates.

[YoungEagle]

Yes I listened and have been listening to police scanner.
This is crazy that this should even be happening.
Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death. After watching the video on the news this is pure evil he is a devil in my book and a waste of oxygen on this planet..Unless he is charged with 1st degree murder and the other 3 are charged this could spiral out of control around the country very quickly and is destroying the metro area here already.

I understand what you are saying but 1st degree murder charges just won’t fit. @SkiUMahLaw can correct me if I’m wrong but 1st degree murder has to show premeditation and that the person planned the murder before committing the crime.

Further charges can be added as the investigation progresses.

I would not say that first degree murder charges won't fit necessarily, but such a charge requires a great deal of evidence of intent that will be difficult to obtain, especially in a short time window. Even then, it is quite a high-risk charge, especially for a police officer-- the law does give police a lot of latitude in exercising authority, and if the cop felt threatened in any way (by the victim, or the crowd), then law generally OKs the response (Noor case, notwithstanding).

In contrast, third degree murder makes intent essentially irrelevant, and only goes to whether the response was reasonably under the circumstances. IMHO, it will be an uphill battle for the cop to get off.

Do you happen to know what the difference is in regards to the penalty?

1st degree- up to life
2nd degree- up to 40 years
3rd degree- up to 25 years
Manslaughter 1- up to 15 years
Manslaughter 2- up to 10 years

Keep in mind a cop who is in prison for murder is not going to be treated kindly by fellow inmates.

If found guilty of both charges would the sentences be applied concurrently or consecutively? Is that decision made by the judge, or by the charge itself?

[SkiUMahLaw]

Yes I listened and have been listening to police scanner.
This is crazy that this should even be happening.
Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death. After watching the video on the news this is pure evil he is a devil in my book and a waste of oxygen on this planet..Unless he is charged with 1st degree murder and the other 3 are charged this could spiral out of control around the country very quickly and is destroying the metro area here already.

I understand what you are saying but 1st degree murder charges just won’t fit. @SkiUMahLaw can correct me if I’m wrong but 1st degree murder has to show premeditation and that the person planned the murder before committing the crime.

Further charges can be added as the investigation progresses.

I would not say that first degree murder charges won't fit necessarily, but such a charge requires a great deal of evidence of intent that will be difficult to obtain, especially in a short time window. Even then, it is quite a high-risk charge, especially for a police officer-- the law does give police a lot of latitude in exercising authority, and if the cop felt threatened in any way (by the victim, or the crowd), then law generally OKs the response (Noor case, notwithstanding).

In contrast, third degree murder makes intent essentially irrelevant, and only goes to whether the response was reasonably under the circumstances. IMHO, it will be an uphill battle for the cop to get off.

Do you happen to know what the difference is in regards to the penalty?

1st degree- up to life
2nd degree- up to 40 years
3rd degree- up to 25 years
Manslaughter 1- up to 15 years
Manslaughter 2- up to 10 years

Keep in mind a cop who is in prison for murder is not going to be treated kindly by fellow inmates.

If found guilty of both charges would the sentences be applied concurrently or consecutively? Is that decision made by the judge, or by the charge itself?

The sentencing judge has authority to apply them, but generally only the longest sentence applies.

I did hear from a friend of mine who is a prosecutor in Arizona. He believes first degree is appropriate, for what it is worth.

[Zwak]

I saw a legal analyst on TV say (and I'm paraphrasing)...good luck to that defense attorney who has to convince a jury that it was okay to kneel on a persons neck for almost 9 minutes, 2 of which he was unconscious, and by the way, he was handcuffed too.

[Cowgirl]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

[Bladepuller]

I would not be surprised to see a plea bargain with an out of state incarceration.
Friends who are corrections officers have seen the above happen.
Chauvin will have no potential allies in the joint since he is a now ex-cop.

[thinkbui]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

[SkiUMahLaw]

I would not be surprised to see a plea bargain with an out of state incarceration.
Friends who are corrections officers have seen the above happen.
Chauvin will have no potential allies in the joint since he is a now ex-cop.

Bingo.

A trial would be another unwelcome circus; since third-degree murder is very likely, there will at least be that, but pushing for first or second degree would really muddle issues. A prosecutor could very easily seek a third-degree plea and get it, as the defendant cop then doesn't have to battle higher charges with more time; while the prosecutor gets a guaranteed conviction with some significant prison time.

Note that 10 years in prison is a long time. No, it isn't life, but it is a long time. For a 45-year old who has maybe 30 left, you'll spend 1/3 of your life in prison and be unemployable when you get out. I mention this not to cast judgment on a prison sentence or make a political statement, but to note that in the history of our country, most of our "long" sentences were for only 5 years, but those involving murder have been 2-3 times that or more. It is only since the mandatory minimums of drug crimes where that has changed, so the public's perspective of a long sentence is a bit skewed.

[SkiUMahLaw]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

[Don Adams Wheel of Justice]

I would think any city would fight hard to keep this trial from coming to them.

[Steve MN]

I would think any city would fight hard to keep this trial from coming to them.

If it actually goes to trial, just from a security perspective, I'm not sure where other than Minneapolis or St Paul they could handle this.

[frozen4champs]

[Norm]

I haven't seen much of her since the Covid started.

[george]

I haven't seen much of her since the Covid started.

She's been broadcasting from home each morning.

On another note, my kid works with a Russian who is family friends with the fuel truck driver from I35W. Says the guy is high-functioning autistic.

[Kelly Red]

I haven't seen much of her since the Covid started.

Her tweet said they notified her while she was on vacation. That seems unnecessarily harsh!

[Snowcool08]

I haven't seen much of her since the Covid started.

She's been broadcasting from home each morning.

Even when she was working from home, I didn’t see much of her. I usually would watch the last 20 minutes of the show in the morning and she was more intent on showing her cat every single day.

[thinkbui]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

Out of curiosity, what would your current legal assessment of a potential case against Thomas Lane? I know most people want him convicted along with Chauvin for also kneeling on Floyd and maybe I've been reading too much about United Flight 173 where the crew had trouble speaking up, but the transcript of the final moments before Floyd's death seems like Lane may have been trying to warn Chauvin about the danger and didn't go farther than he did because he was a rookie intimidated by Chauvin's seniority. Not saying he shouldn't face consequences, but wondering how that would change things legally.

[The Rube]

Maybe criminal negligence compared to aiding/abetting, which sounds like what the charges will be?

[Norm]

I haven't seen much of her since the Covid started.

She's been broadcasting from home each morning.

Even when she was working from home, I didn’t see much of her. I usually would watch the last 20 minutes of the show in the morning and she was more intent on showing her cat every single day.

I always wondered how tall she is? Seems like she towered over most coworkers.

[Gopherguy05]

I haven't seen much of her since the Covid started.

She's been broadcasting from home each morning.

Even when she was working from home, I didn’t see much of her. I usually would watch the last 20 minutes of the show in the morning and she was more intent on showing her cat every single day.

I always wondered how tall she is? Seems like she towered over most coworkers.

Pretty sure I remember reading somewhere she is 5'11"

[The Rube]

That is tall for a woman. Just googled average heights, and for women it's 5'4" and for men it's 5'9" in the US.

[SkiUMahLaw]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

Out of curiosity, what would your current legal assessment of a potential case against Thomas Lane? I know most people want him convicted along with Chauvin for also kneeling on Floyd and maybe I've been reading too much about United Flight 173 where the crew had trouble speaking up, but the transcript of the final moments before Floyd's death seems like Lane may have been trying to warn Chauvin about the danger and didn't go farther than he did because he was a rookie intimidated by Chauvin's seniority. Not saying he shouldn't face consequences, but wondering how that would change things legally.

The case against Chauvin is independent from the other three (who will likely be independent from one another, but not necessarily).

The case against the other three gets difficult IMHO because you'd have to prove some element of intent to further the homicide to prove aiding and abetting. Here, cuffing a suspect and coordinating crowd control on a busy street corner is normal police operations and textbook policy. You would have a hard time proving aiding/abetting unless they were doing something above and beyond that.

I believe each of the three would argue that, given the street situation, they were concentrating on the crowd at hand and trusting Chauvin to handle the victim. They would check in on Chauvin and the struggle, but you have a cuffed suspect who has been neutralized, but were more concerned about the mob as they were outnumbered, and they feared an immediate riot and for their own safety. That makes a tough case to prosecute against them-- without evidence of "we're going to take this guy down hard" it will be tough to prove they weren't merely following police protocol, with Chauvin going rogue.

Maybe the better prosecutorial option is to get them on negligence for not starting CPR on an unresponsive individual in their presence. But there is no proof failing to do so did any harm; if Chauvin held Mr. Floyd down for 3 minutes after death, it would be uncertain whether CPR could have helped at all.

[Zwak]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

Out of curiosity, what would your current legal assessment of a potential case against Thomas Lane? I know most people want him convicted along with Chauvin for also kneeling on Floyd and maybe I've been reading too much about United Flight 173 where the crew had trouble speaking up, but the transcript of the final moments before Floyd's death seems like Lane may have been trying to warn Chauvin about the danger and didn't go farther than he did because he was a rookie intimidated by Chauvin's seniority. Not saying he shouldn't face consequences, but wondering how that would change things legally.

The case against Chauvin is independent from the other three (who will likely be independent from one another, but not necessarily).

The case against the other three gets difficult IMHO because you'd have to prove some element of intent to further the homicide to prove aiding and abetting. Here, cuffing a suspect and coordinating crowd control on a busy street corner is normal police operations and textbook policy. You would have a hard time proving aiding/abetting unless they were doing something above and beyond that.

I believe each of the three would argue that, given the street situation, they were concentrating on the crowd at hand and trusting Chauvin to handle the victim. They would check in on Chauvin and the struggle, but you have a cuffed suspect who has been neutralized, but were more concerned about the mob as they were outnumbered, and they feared an immediate riot and for their own safety. That makes a tough case to prosecute against them-- without evidence of "we're going to take this guy down hard" it will be tough to prove they weren't merely following police protocol, with Chauvin going rogue.

Maybe the better prosecutorial option is to get them on negligence for not starting CPR on an unresponsive individual in their presence. But there is no proof failing to do so did any harm; if Chauvin held Mr. Floyd down for 3 minutes after death, it would be uncertain whether CPR could have helped at all.

Always love your legal insights. I learn a lot.

[Slap Shot]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

Out of curiosity, what would your current legal assessment of a potential case against Thomas Lane? I know most people want him convicted along with Chauvin for also kneeling on Floyd and maybe I've been reading too much about United Flight 173 where the crew had trouble speaking up, but the transcript of the final moments before Floyd's death seems like Lane may have been trying to warn Chauvin about the danger and didn't go farther than he did because he was a rookie intimidated by Chauvin's seniority. Not saying he shouldn't face consequences, but wondering how that would change things legally.

The case against Chauvin is independent from the other three (who will likely be independent from one another, but not necessarily).

The case against the other three gets difficult IMHO because you'd have to prove some element of intent to further the homicide to prove aiding and abetting. Here, cuffing a suspect and coordinating crowd control on a busy street corner is normal police operations and textbook policy. You would have a hard time proving aiding/abetting unless they were doing something above and beyond that.

I believe each of the three would argue that, given the street situation, they were concentrating on the crowd at hand and trusting Chauvin to handle the victim. They would check in on Chauvin and the struggle, but you have a cuffed suspect who has been neutralized, but were more concerned about the mob as they were outnumbered, and they feared an immediate riot and for their own safety. That makes a tough case to prosecute against them-- without evidence of "we're going to take this guy down hard" it will be tough to prove they weren't merely following police protocol, with Chauvin going rogue.

Maybe the better prosecutorial option is to get them on negligence for not starting CPR on an unresponsive individual in their presence. But there is no proof failing to do so did any harm; if Chauvin held Mr. Floyd down for 3 minutes after death, it would be uncertain whether CPR could have helped at all.

2/3 were also on top of the victim as evidenced by at least one other camera angle and video footage. That may or may not change the underlined but fwiw.

[SkiUMahLaw]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

Out of curiosity, what would your current legal assessment of a potential case against Thomas Lane? I know most people want him convicted along with Chauvin for also kneeling on Floyd and maybe I've been reading too much about United Flight 173 where the crew had trouble speaking up, but the transcript of the final moments before Floyd's death seems like Lane may have been trying to warn Chauvin about the danger and didn't go farther than he did because he was a rookie intimidated by Chauvin's seniority. Not saying he shouldn't face consequences, but wondering how that would change things legally.

The case against Chauvin is independent from the other three (who will likely be independent from one another, but not necessarily).

The case against the other three gets difficult IMHO because you'd have to prove some element of intent to further the homicide to prove aiding and abetting. Here, cuffing a suspect and coordinating crowd control on a busy street corner is normal police operations and textbook policy. You would have a hard time proving aiding/abetting unless they were doing something above and beyond that.

I believe each of the three would argue that, given the street situation, they were concentrating on the crowd at hand and trusting Chauvin to handle the victim. They would check in on Chauvin and the struggle, but you have a cuffed suspect who has been neutralized, but were more concerned about the mob as they were outnumbered, and they feared an immediate riot and for their own safety. That makes a tough case to prosecute against them-- without evidence of "we're going to take this guy down hard" it will be tough to prove they weren't merely following police protocol, with Chauvin going rogue.

Maybe the better prosecutorial option is to get them on negligence for not starting CPR on an unresponsive individual in their presence. But there is no proof failing to do so did any harm; if Chauvin held Mr. Floyd down for 3 minutes after death, it would be uncertain whether CPR could have helped at all.

2/3 were also on top of the victim as evidenced by at least one other camera angle and video footage. That may or may not change the underlined but fwiw.

I saw some video like that, and I am not discounting it. I am just guessing what they would argue, as it is a positive scenario for them. If it is a credible argument, then I fear my analysis has merit.

[Norm]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

Out of curiosity, what would your current legal assessment of a potential case against Thomas Lane? I know most people want him convicted along with Chauvin for also kneeling on Floyd and maybe I've been reading too much about United Flight 173 where the crew had trouble speaking up, but the transcript of the final moments before Floyd's death seems like Lane may have been trying to warn Chauvin about the danger and didn't go farther than he did because he was a rookie intimidated by Chauvin's seniority. Not saying he shouldn't face consequences, but wondering how that would change things legally.

The case against Chauvin is independent from the other three (who will likely be independent from one another, but not necessarily).

The case against the other three gets difficult IMHO because you'd have to prove some element of intent to further the homicide to prove aiding and abetting. Here, cuffing a suspect and coordinating crowd control on a busy street corner is normal police operations and textbook policy. You would have a hard time proving aiding/abetting unless they were doing something above and beyond that.

I believe each of the three would argue that, given the street situation, they were concentrating on the crowd at hand and trusting Chauvin to handle the victim. They would check in on Chauvin and the struggle, but you have a cuffed suspect who has been neutralized, but were more concerned about the mob as they were outnumbered, and they feared an immediate riot and for their own safety. That makes a tough case to prosecute against them-- without evidence of "we're going to take this guy down hard" it will be tough to prove they weren't merely following police protocol, with Chauvin going rogue.

Maybe the better prosecutorial option is to get them on negligence for not starting CPR on an unresponsive individual in their presence. But there is no proof failing to do so did any harm; if Chauvin held Mr. Floyd down for 3 minutes after death, it would be uncertain whether CPR could have helped at all.

2/3 were also on top of the victim as evidenced by at least one other camera angle and video footage. That may or may not change the underlined but fwiw.

I saw some video like that, and I am not discounting it. I am just guessing what they would argue, as it is a positive scenario for them. If it is a credible argument, then I fear my analysis has merit.

I know in a perfect world it shouldn't, but do you think fear of rioting will influence charges against the other 3? Might a prosecutor say to himself, "If we don't throw the book at them there will be more riots?"

[YoungEagle]

How do they even find a jury of folks who don’t know about this case and already have bias?

I've wondered that about other recent high profile cases since it's hard to avoid even hearing about viral videos these days let alone news stories or, more importantly, hearsay that's potentially prejudicial. Would they have to settle for folks who can demonstrate a limited bias?

And even then there might be a hill to climb since I would expect a lot of folks would feel as I do and not want to be responsible for deciding such a big case, especially with all the passions it's been stoking over the last week, and would try everything they can to get themselves excused during jury selection.

Yes. Add in a potential race concern to this issue and stir well. Defendant may seek to move the trial to a different county venue to get a better prospective jury pool (I could see Duluth, Bemidji, Moorhead, Mankato, or Rochester), but the prosecution would not likely agree and a judge would need to approve it. None of that is clear.

Out of curiosity, what would your current legal assessment of a potential case against Thomas Lane? I know most people want him convicted along with Chauvin for also kneeling on Floyd and maybe I've been reading too much about United Flight 173 where the crew had trouble speaking up, but the transcript of the final moments before Floyd's death seems like Lane may have been trying to warn Chauvin about the danger and didn't go farther than he did because he was a rookie intimidated by Chauvin's seniority. Not saying he shouldn't face consequences, but wondering how that would change things legally.

The case against Chauvin is independent from the other three (who will likely be independent from one another, but not necessarily).

The case against the other three gets difficult IMHO because you'd have to prove some element of intent to further the homicide to prove aiding and abetting. Here, cuffing a suspect and coordinating crowd control on a busy street corner is normal police operations and textbook policy. You would have a hard time proving aiding/abetting unless they were doing something above and beyond that.

I believe each of the three would argue that, given the street situation, they were concentrating on the crowd at hand and trusting Chauvin to handle the victim. They would check in on Chauvin and the struggle, but you have a cuffed suspect who has been neutralized, but were more concerned about the mob as they were outnumbered, and they feared an immediate riot and for their own safety. That makes a tough case to prosecute against them-- without evidence of "we're going to take this guy down hard" it will be tough to prove they weren't merely following police protocol, with Chauvin going rogue.

Maybe the better prosecutorial option is to get them on negligence for not starting CPR on an unresponsive individual in their presence. But there is no proof failing to do so did any harm; if Chauvin held Mr. Floyd down for 3 minutes after death, it would be uncertain whether CPR could have helped at all.

Curious on another point of the legal proceeding. I read somewhere that while it can be difficult to convict and sentence police officers of crimes like murder, that in this case the Feds may be able to charge Chauvin on something like (and this name may be wrong) depriving George’s civil rights which led to his death which could potentially carry a longer sentence than murder 3 and manslaughter. I know it’s a totally different court system (federal) but I’m curious if there’s any logic to that.

[SkiUMahLaw]

I know in a perfect world it shouldn't, but do you think fear of rioting will influence charges against the other 3? Might a prosecutor say to himself, "If we don't throw the book at them there will be more riots?"

Typical lawyer answer: yes and no. I think the evidence will influence what is being charged but the rioting will influence the degree leading to conviction. You don't want to overcharge and lose, causing more rioting. Undercharging and success may lead some to be unhappy, but it likely doesn't lead to riots. They want convictions, not to punish someone with 3 days in jail.

By the way, good analysis here by a Mitchell-Hamline Professor. It's a little bit professor-ish in terms of "it could happen...", but I agree with his conclusion.

Curious on another point of the legal proceeding. I read somewhere that while it can be difficult to convict and sentence police officers of crimes like murder, that in this case the Feds may be able to charge Chauvin on something like (and this name may be wrong) depriving George’s civil rights which led to his death which could potentially carry a longer sentence than murder 3 and manslaughter. I know it’s a totally different court system (federal) but I’m curious if there’s any logic to that.

The Feds have civil rights jurisdiction and could see this as a civil rights case and charge it accordingly, and that is independent of the homicide inquiry. However, frequently we will see which way the wind is blowing on the homicide before seeking this, as the Feds don't look for a pound of flesh necessarily if the state got it already, but sometimes politics happens. You would need evidence showing a pattern of discrimination by the officer essentially to establish that, and I don't know enough about whether that exists or not with regard to Chauvin.

[JC65]

After 15 years:

[Karlsson]

Damn, that's sad. 15 years of listening to him, 11 of which I assumed he was Australian.

[YoungEagle]

I know in a perfect world it shouldn't, but do you think fear of rioting will influence charges against the other 3? Might a prosecutor say to himself, "If we don't throw the book at them there will be more riots?"

Typical lawyer answer: yes and no. I think the evidence will influence what is being charged but the rioting will influence the degree leading to conviction. You don't want to overcharge and lose, causing more rioting. Undercharging and success may lead some to be unhappy, but it likely doesn't lead to riots. They want convictions, not to punish someone with 3 days in jail.

By the way, good analysis here by a Mitchell-Hamline Professor. It's a little bit professor-ish in terms of "it could happen...", but I agree with his conclusion.

Curious on another point of the legal proceeding. I read somewhere that while it can be difficult to convict and sentence police officers of crimes like murder, that in this case the Feds may be able to charge Chauvin on something like (and this name may be wrong) depriving George’s civil rights which led to his death which could potentially carry a longer sentence than murder 3 and manslaughter. I know it’s a totally different court system (federal) but I’m curious if there’s any logic to that.

The Feds have civil rights jurisdiction and could see this as a civil rights case and charge it accordingly, and that is independent of the homicide inquiry. However, frequently we will see which way the wind is blowing on the homicide before seeking this, as the Feds don't look for a pound of flesh necessarily if the state got it already, but sometimes politics happens. You would need evidence showing a pattern of discrimination by the officer essentially to establish that, and I don't know enough about whether that exists or not with regard to Chauvin.

Thanks! Your insights are very helpful.

[Slap Shot]

After 15 years:

Bummer. Odd that they didn't state (unless I missed it) where he's going next.

[Beauner]

Was never really a huge fan of Mike Max when it comes to sports coverage. But he's been spectacular covering everything going on in Minneapolis.

[Karlsson]

Alright @SkiUMahLaw , what are your thoughts/opinions on the new charges? Second degree for Chauvin, aiding and abetting for the other three. You were extremely helpful in clarifying things for us the first time around!

[SkiUMahLaw]

Ok, well here is the standard for second degree murder:

Intentional Murder: Whoever...causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or
Unintentional Murder: Whoever...(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or (2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

Well, intent here will be difficult to show, as you would need evidence showing that the goal was to kill Floyd, which will be really, really hard to get. We all saw the video, and while we can make an assumption that was the cop's goal, he would deny such, and likely provide some counter argument that Chauvin felt that Floyd was still resisting arrest which is why the length that it was. This is different than third degree, where intent is irrelevant; for second degree you need to show intent to meet the first test.

If you instead are going for the unintentional components, you would need to show either (1.) Chauvin was committing a felony in his actions, or (2.) Chauvin performed the act with an order for protection against him (which is clearly not the case). So the only hope here is to show that Chauvin was committing a felony in the act itself, which will be even more difficult to prove-- he is a cop and assault/battery are part of the job and he does have authority to use force-- even deadly-- when he feels threatened. So you'd have to show that his use of force was entirely out of order (tough to do against a cop) and the murder resulted therefrom.

This is risky for a prosecutor. Not at all clear that these facts are met and the defense has some fair defenses to these components.

As to the aiding and abetting, I think this analysis hasn't changed, other than it still requires an intentional act to further the crime itself. That is a tough sell, because there is no evidence he intended to kill Mr. Floyd with premeditation, and he likely did not inform the other cops he intends to rough Mr. Floyd up and they assisted in that occurring.

So I don't like it. Not saying it isn't impossible, but it is not anywhere near a slam dunk. Third degree is a lot safer and more likely. Second degree is a stretch IMHO.

[Karlsson]

Sooooo buckle up. Thought so.

Thanks!

[Steve MN]

Not having had a chance to look in further than the quick news articles, are they replacing the 3rd degree with the 2nd degree charge, or adding it?

EDIT: Reading later coverage, it's an added 2nd Degree murder charge, so they can try for that, but still have the 3rd degree on the table.

[SkiUMahLaw]

I will note that sometimes this is a prosecutorial tactic to push a plea bargain. Prosecutors push a higher charge, even though it may be a stretch, to force defendant to plead to a lesser charge.

This may be at play here. I cannot imagine Ellison really wants the circus of a trial.

[Steve MN]

I will note that sometimes this is a prosecutorial tactic to push a plea bargain. Prosecutors push a higher charge, even though it may be a stretch, to force defendant to plead to a lesser charge.

This may be at play here. I cannot imagine Ellison really wants the circus of a trial.

Thanks for the confirmation. I was thinking the same direction.

[gopherguy13]

What are we paying for SkiUMahLaw's retainer?!

[Bladepuller]

A free week at Young Eagles cabin?
YE needs buy in to join the mods

[Bladepuller]

Like I mentioned earlier, a plea bargain would not surprise me.
Chauvin will not spend much time in the prison general population if convicted or plea bargains.
Cops have no allies in the yard & the inmates really control the yard. The correction officers control who leaves & that comes from my guard buddies

[Karlsson]

Yeah, I've heard from a few sources that he'll end up in ad seg at Oak Park Heights, which is where he probably is now.

[The Rube]

Chauvin will never be in genpop. But, I can't say that a guard isn't open to some suggestions.

[gopher6]

west side fish wrap good hockey memories
https://www.startribune.com/star-tribun ... 571003032/

[D2D]

west side fish wrap good hockey memories
https://www.startribune.com/star-tribun ... 571003032/

Great memories! We can only hope this year's team gets the opportunity to make some more.

[Greyeagle]

west side fish wrap good hockey memories
https://www.startribune.com/star-tribun ... 571003032/

Great memories! We can only hope this year's team gets the opportunity to make some more.

Wasn't it during that Mankato playoff series when Wooger made his epic "everyone is standing except those in wheelchairs" comment?

[The Rube]

That Mankato playoff series took about 5 years off of my life.

[D2D]

That Mankato playoff series took about 5 years off of my life.

Unless you are a 'supreme master prognosticator', how exactly do we know this?

But you are right, it has to be the closest three game playoff series in Gopher hockey history, super tense from start to sudden-death overtime finish.