Consumer Research

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bigbeer » Thu Jan 03 12:10 am

Gopher Hockey Rube wrote:
Wed May 23 1:00 pm
Bertogliat wrote:
Wed May 23 12:57 pm
Hmmm, do I or do I not trust my home project with someone called Buck Nutty?
:lol:
Sounds like you can be confident that he will finish...
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by MNGophers29 » Thu Jan 03 1:49 pm

dryfly wrote:
Wed Jan 02 8:16 pm
Kelor wrote:
Wed Jan 02 7:44 pm
I have a home built in the 1960s where everything was custom. My front room has a bay window which consists of 6 separate windows. They need to be replaced. The inserts are out of the question. We had HOme Depot come in today and got a quote. $9,000.

There has to be a better way. I’m not going to be in this house for more than two years, so the goofy Warren ties are not important to me.

Thoughts?
Who did HD quote for windows? They usually use a window manufacturer then mark it up. Marvin, Pella, Andersen, Ma-n-Pa small shop - etc. They still might be ‘custom’ but made in a shop that specializes in low volume custom projects like this (as opposed to a high production assembly line like Andersen’s main plant in Bayport). The difference in price can be quite significant.

If you can wait - walk a Home and Garden Show. Be TONS of window mfgrs, distributors, installers and general renovators who do windows too. Talk - learn.

Next one is Jan 25 - 27 at US Bank...

http://minneapolishomeandremodelingshow.com/

There is a larger one at Mpls Conv Ctr in February 22 - 24 and again in March ...

http://homeandgardenshow.com/

I would take pictures of your project and go booth to booth. Ask if they do business like this ... and would they quote. Ask for references if they do.

My wife and I needed siding and windows (odd sizes because house so old) and found a number of companies interested. Got a good deal on a difficult job.

That is my recommendation.
We use Simonton and Andersen only and we buy direct through our exterior window program. Guessing it had to be a wood window given you want it to match your other ones, which puts it in an Andersen and given the size to have 6 separate windows, the size is probably substantial. I have sold $9000 Andersen bay window units before not installed.

What is wrong with the window? Do you know the original manufacturer? If it is just the glass, you should be able to get them done fairly inexpensively.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by D2D » Thu Jan 03 11:56 pm

If you will not be in the house for more than two years, I would seek multiple bids and go with the cheapest possible that would fit in well with the rest of the house. In your situation, longevity is not an issue, it's all about how they look to potential buyers.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Cowgirl » Fri Jan 04 9:24 am

D2D wrote:
Thu Jan 03 11:56 pm
If you will not be in the house for more than two years, I would seek multiple bids and go with the cheapest possible that would fit in well with the rest of the house. In your situation, longevity is not an issue, it's all about how they look to potential buyers.

This drives me nuts. You’re just creating a potential problem for the next owner. How about invest in something quality (I’m not saying most expensivest) and be sure that’s known to a potential buyer - hey, two years ago we put in new, high quality windows! Should be worth something to the value of the home. IMHO.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by george » Fri Jan 04 9:27 am

Cowgirl wrote:
Fri Jan 04 9:24 am
D2D wrote:
Thu Jan 03 11:56 pm
If you will not be in the house for more than two years, I would seek multiple bids and go with the cheapest possible that would fit in well with the rest of the house. In your situation, longevity is not an issue, it's all about how they look to potential buyers.

This drives me nuts. You’re just creating a potential problem for the next owner. How about invest in something quality (I’m not saying most expensivest) and be sure that’s known to a potential buyer - hey, two years ago we put in new, high quality windows! Should be worth something to the value of the home. IMHO.
In a perfect world, yes. In the real world, unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Fri Jan 04 9:49 am

george wrote:
Fri Jan 04 9:27 am
Cowgirl wrote:
Fri Jan 04 9:24 am
D2D wrote:
Thu Jan 03 11:56 pm
If you will not be in the house for more than two years, I would seek multiple bids and go with the cheapest possible that would fit in well with the rest of the house. In your situation, longevity is not an issue, it's all about how they look to potential buyers.

This drives me nuts. You’re just creating a potential problem for the next owner. How about invest in something quality (I’m not saying most expensivest) and be sure that’s known to a potential buyer - hey, two years ago we put in new, high quality windows! Should be worth something to the value of the home. IMHO.
In a perfect world, yes. In the real world, unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way.
Yep, exactly. It isn't worth buying high quality stuff if you're looking to sell in the next few years. There is no way you'll get your money back out of it.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by MNGophers29 » Fri Jan 04 10:20 am

The Home Depot windows have a transferable lifetime warranty. If selling point.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Cowgirl » Fri Jan 04 10:37 am

Why upgrade at all then if you are selling soon? At least let the new owners decide what kind of quality they want.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by george » Fri Jan 04 11:29 am

Cowgirl wrote:
Fri Jan 04 10:37 am
Why upgrade at all then if you are selling soon? At least let the new owners decide what kind of quality they want.
Many possible reasons; comfort level in that room for the next couple years, energy costs for those years, curb appeal for the home when selling. "We replaced the windows just a couple years ago." Says the house has been maintained, which is a good selling point. The windows were replaced with top of the line custom units says more, but not enough to make it worth the cost add.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Fri Jan 04 11:53 am

george wrote:
Fri Jan 04 11:29 am
Cowgirl wrote:
Fri Jan 04 10:37 am
Why upgrade at all then if you are selling soon? At least let the new owners decide what kind of quality they want.
Many possible reasons; comfort level in that room for the next couple years, energy costs for those years, curb appeal for the home when selling. "We replaced the windows just a couple years ago." Says the house has been maintained, which is a good selling point. The windows were replaced with top of the line custom units says more, but not enough to make it worth the cost add.
Good points. I think he can get VERY good upgrades w/out spending a huge premium. Might not be cheap but I doubt any are actually ‘cheap’.

Window biz is crazily competitive right now - which is why I suggested going to some renovation shows - talk to people and learn. If future resale is an issue - talk go a realtor after that. Ask them for advice.

I really don’t have an answer for him or anyone - my advice is get out there and talk to a lot of people. Then weigh options. It might be like the 70s radio show - “Everything YOU know is WRONG!” Been there a few times. So talking to people who likely do know - work in that space every day - is a good start.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Greyeagle » Fri Jan 04 12:02 pm

We have been replacing windows in our older home (1915) over the past several years and have used Beissel. We went with vinyl and have been very happy with the windows and thought Beissel did a fantastic job.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bertogliat » Fri Jan 04 12:44 pm

Cowgirl wrote:
Fri Jan 04 10:37 am
Why upgrade at all then if you are selling soon? At least let the new owners decide what kind of quality they want.
Don’t worry, you’re not crazy. It’s a problem for all homes smaller than a McMansion these days. It almost never pays to put in nice replacements for anything and most people these days don’t expect to stay in their house until they die. Too many people constantly trying to get into better and better houses.

Far too often people put on cheap windows, furnaces, roofing, etc. Just enough to get a sale. We’re going to end up with millions of homes not worth maintaining.

I spent a lot on my last house. Replaced windows throughout ($24k), built a new deck $6k, and remodeled the bathroom $8k. We lost a ton of money when we sold for less than we bought the house for (in 2006).

I expected to live there a long time. But the mortgage rate fell too much and I couldnt get out of my original mortgage with the price of the house dropping. So it was cheap to move into a much upgraded house.

I don’t regret spending money for nice upgrades, but if I knew we would sell I would have gone with a moderate quality over high quality.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Cowgirl » Fri Jan 04 1:08 pm

I know the drill. Our first home we built new, and had lots of custom features (standard house farm split level but we knew the builder so could do some things ourselves like actually have built in can lights throughout the house, loft above the garage for storage, more efficient basement layout, in floor tubing ready for hookup, etc. We put in at least 100K of our own money on upgrades while we lived there and still had to borrow 20K to sell our house. Despite knowing they got a great deal they knew we needed to sell and took full advantage. We were lucky to even get an offer as the market had tanked, so we had to do what we needed to do to get out.
I understand that investing now usually won’t get you your money back come sale but to Bertogliat’s point, without quality you end up with throwaway things vs. being able to maintain them long term.

Kinda how most products are these days in our society.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Sat Jan 05 11:32 am

Cowgirl wrote:
Fri Jan 04 1:08 pm
I know the drill. Our first home we built new, and had lots of custom features (standard house farm split level but we knew the builder so could do some things ourselves like actually have built in can lights throughout the house, loft above the garage for storage, more efficient basement layout, in floor tubing ready for hookup, etc. We put in at least 100K of our own money on upgrades while we lived there and still had to borrow 20K to sell our house. Despite knowing they got a great deal they knew we needed to sell and took full advantage. We were lucky to even get an offer as the market had tanked, so we had to do what we needed to do to get out.
I understand that investing now usually won’t get you your money back come sale but to Bertogliat’s point, without quality you end up with throwaway things vs. being able to maintain them long term.

Kinda how most products are these days in our society.
The 2008 financial crisis / housing bust (which had a housing price hangover that lasted quite awhile longer) was a pretty unique period as far as real estate investment returns goes. You weren’t the only ones who got burned during that time frame.

Other periods had similar experiences but more regional. Rust belt / stagflation in Northeast and Great Lakes during 1970s. Farm crisis in Midwest and Mountain States in 1980s. But 00’s were the first time since 1929 it went national. A tough time to sell.

Having said that I tell my kids and everyone I know IN GENERAL housing is a crappy investment. There are exceptions but in general this is true once you factor in financing and maintenance cost of ownership. I tell them the reason you own vs rent is because you want to. The reason you maintain is because living in a reasonably well maintained home is far more enjoyable. You might make money but no guarantee. Go into it with that mindset.

I think if more did that they would be happier in their homes. And frankly more people might opt for renting - a really good option more people should consider as opposed to owning.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by The Rube » Sat Jan 05 11:37 am

One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Sat Jan 05 12:04 pm

The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
Rent like single family cycles a lot. There are also regional factors - local supply demand issues. We went through a prolonged period where single family housing build went nuts - especially SFH focused on upper income. Multi family was slower to respond - rental returns didn’t justify the build vs SFH. With increasing rents - THAT will change. Be more multifamily built but will be a lag before it results in lower rents and even then will still be subject to regional / local factors.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by davescharf » Sat Jan 05 1:01 pm

The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
Jeez - I really need to go back and look at possible rental properties at those types of prices.

We bought our house in August 2005 and knowing we didn't want to start a family for awhile we kicked around the idea of living in a smaller place in/around downtown. We opted to just buy our future family house because we weren't sure we would want to move in 3-4 years. Looking back on it we would have loved the smaller place but we lucked out with our decision because we would have taken a huge loss if we needed to sell something in 2009 when we found out we were expecting our first child. Now I only have about 11-12 years left on the mortgage (after 2 refinances that took 5 years off the original 30) and plenty of room for the 4 of us.

We do want to remodel our basement in a pretty major way and our windows need to be replaced, but after the adoption we're a couple years away from wanting to spend that kind of money or take out a loan for what that will cost.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Beauner » Sun Jan 06 1:29 am

The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
1400 a month is more than I pay for my 2BR, 1.5 bath townhome mortgage and association dues.
The outrageous rent prices is part of why I decided to buy instead.

That, along with 98% of rent-capable housing had breed restrictions on pets and with my dog being a pittie it severely limited my options.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by The Rube » Sun Jan 06 8:45 am

Beauner wrote:
Sun Jan 06 1:29 am
The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
1400 a month is more than I pay for my 2BR, 1.5 bath townhome mortgage and association dues.
The outrageous rent prices is part of why I decided to buy instead.

That, along with 98% of rent-capable housing had breed restrictions on pets and with my dog being a pittie it severely limited my options.
I'm under 1G, 1BR apt w/vaulted ceilings, decent patio, W/D, and fireplace (unused btw). I've been here 10 years, so per company policy, my rent is now frozen. That's a nice perk.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Handyman » Sun Jan 06 10:31 am

$1400 is the cost of the mortgage on the house my GF and I have. It is 1700 square feet with 3 beds, 2 baths and full basement with 2.5 stall garage. Anyone who would rent a 1br for that price (unless it is in a nice complex downtown or something) is not very good with money.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by MNNavy » Sun Jan 06 1:45 pm

dryfly wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:32 am
Having said that I tell my kids and everyone I know IN GENERAL housing is a crappy investment. There are exceptions but in general this is true once you factor in financing and maintenance cost of ownership. I tell them the reason you own vs rent is because you want to. The reason you maintain is because living in a reasonably well maintained home is far more enjoyable. You might make money but no guarantee. Go into it with that mindset.
For a lot of people, it is a crappy investment. However, there is something to be said for being 55 (in 1 1/2 months), and not having monthly payment. Can't do that with an apartment :dance:
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Sun Jan 06 3:02 pm

MNNavy wrote:
Sun Jan 06 1:45 pm
dryfly wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:32 am
Having said that I tell my kids and everyone I know IN GENERAL housing is a crappy investment. There are exceptions but in general this is true once you factor in financing and maintenance cost of ownership. I tell them the reason you own vs rent is because you want to. The reason you maintain is because living in a reasonably well maintained home is far more enjoyable. You might make money but no guarantee. Go into it with that mindset.
For a lot of people, it is a crappy investment. However, there is something to be said for being 55 (in 1 1/2 months), and not having monthly payment. Can't do that with an apartment :dance:
Depends on the opportunity cost of that sunken investment - if you had that money what could you do with it as far as investing? Plus if renting your landlord picks up the cost of maintenance you would have to pay if you owned so you still have ‘carry cost’ Ben as an owner with no payments.

If you are still working and at max earning years and you don’t have payments w interest or last few payments that are mostly principal ... you don’t even have the income tax deduction.

And in a lot of places - the community is part of an HOA - home owners association - that constrains what you can do with your home and levies assessments for things you might or might not value. I have friends with HOA fees in the range of $500 - $800 per month. Brutal.

Lastly mobility. Renting means you give notice at end of lease agreement and go. Selling can be brutal. We are in a bit of a sellers market now but I can remember the opposite real well. I knew a family who had their home up for sale for three years before they sold. Retirees planning to move out of state. They couldn’t cut price a lot because that was a big part of their retirement nest egg. They were very bitter.

Where owing makes most sense is if you like where you live. You like the way you live. And you want to live there a long time. That covers a lot of people which is why I think most people own. They rationalize it by saying it’s a good investment - in general I think the investment rationalization is wrong but doing it for those personal reasons is ‘right’ IMO.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Sun Jan 06 3:19 pm

davescharf wrote:
Sat Jan 05 1:01 pm
The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
Jeez - I really need to go back and look at possible rental properties at those types of prices..
I would think really hard before doing this.

First you better like being a landlord. Meaning you have the ‘honey do’ lists for those properties as well as your own. Either you do (time) or you pay others (money). Some love this - my neighbor does. I would not.

Secondly rent economics cycle. As a result so does price you pay to buy rental properties. Right now rental properties are selling at very high multiples (because rents are high). When rental market softens (eventually will - it always does) the prices for those properties collapse.

If you are serious about rental investing WAIT until rents decline and property values soften. Then buy the assets at distressed prices. If you get a good location and a property that isn’t crap - the market will cycle again and rents increase. THAT is how a person makes money in real estate ... buy properties cheap when distressed and either resell when market recovers or monetize via higher rents when market recovers.

The guys who are raking it in now bought properties in 2008 - 2010 and are now charging rents based on 2019 economy. The way to lose your ass is buy now and be stuck with those properties come the next recession.

Good luck.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by davescharf » Sun Jan 06 3:54 pm

dryfly wrote:
Sun Jan 06 3:19 pm
davescharf wrote:
Sat Jan 05 1:01 pm
The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
Jeez - I really need to go back and look at possible rental properties at those types of prices..
I would think really hard before doing this.

First you better like being a landlord. Meaning you have the ‘honey do’ lists for those properties as well as your own. Either you do (time) or you pay others (money). Some love this - my neighbor does. I would not.

Secondly rent economics cycle. As a result so does price you pay to buy rental properties. Right now rental properties are selling at very high multiples (because rents are high). When rental market softens (eventually will - it always does) the prices for those properties collapse.

If you are serious about rental investing WAIT until rents decline and property values soften. Then buy the assets at distressed prices. If you get a good location and a property that isn’t crap - the market will cycle again and rents increase. THAT is how a person makes money in real estate ... buy properties cheap when distressed and either resell when market recovers or monetize via higher rents when market recovers.

The guys who are raking it in now bought properties in 2008 - 2010 and are now charging rents based on 2019 economy. The way to lose your ass is buy now and be stuck with those properties come the next recession.

Good luck.
Yeah - I'm kind of kidding because we talked about it 5 years ago when there were still a lot of Foreclosures. We went to look at the place my parents bought as their retirement home up here and after seeing it I told him if he wasn't buying it I would have. The price was incredibly low and the house was in excellent shape. It's worked pretty well for them, but now a lot of that type of stuff has been picked over.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Tue Jan 08 8:42 am

Beauner wrote:
Sun Jan 06 1:29 am
The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
1400 a month is more than I pay for my 2BR, 1.5 bath townhome mortgage and association dues.
The outrageous rent prices is part of why I decided to buy instead.

That, along with 98% of rent-capable housing had breed restrictions on pets and with my dog being a pittie it severely limited my options.
It is 500 more than I pay for my 3BR, 2 Bath house with attached garage on 2.5 acres mortgage. :shock:

I see no logical reason to rent. You may as well burn your money.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by gopherguy06 » Tue Jan 08 9:37 am

Jane Fonda wrote:
Tue Jan 08 8:42 am
Beauner wrote:
Sun Jan 06 1:29 am
The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
1400 a month is more than I pay for my 2BR, 1.5 bath townhome mortgage and association dues.
The outrageous rent prices is part of why I decided to buy instead.

That, along with 98% of rent-capable housing had breed restrictions on pets and with my dog being a pittie it severely limited my options.
It is 500 more than I pay for my 3BR, 2 Bath house with attached garage on 2.5 acres mortgage. :shock:

I see no logical reason to rent. You may as well burn your money.
2.5 acres... where are you?

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Tue Jan 08 9:44 am

gopherguy06 wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:37 am
Jane Fonda wrote:
Tue Jan 08 8:42 am
Beauner wrote:
Sun Jan 06 1:29 am
The Rube wrote:
Sat Jan 05 11:37 am
One word of caution, at least currently.....rent is crazy right now for apts. For lulz I checked out rent for a couple buildings next to Ridgedale, and 1BR is starting at about $1400/month. Rents for 2BR could cost up to $3000/month. That's crazy. At that point, go buy a townhome, where at least some of the maintenance is covered with being in the association...
1400 a month is more than I pay for my 2BR, 1.5 bath townhome mortgage and association dues.
The outrageous rent prices is part of why I decided to buy instead.

That, along with 98% of rent-capable housing had breed restrictions on pets and with my dog being a pittie it severely limited my options.
It is 500 more than I pay for my 3BR, 2 Bath house with attached garage on 2.5 acres mortgage. :shock:

I see no logical reason to rent. You may as well burn your money.
2.5 acres... where are you?
Northern suburbs. Ham Lake. Granted, I bought when the market was bottomed out, in 2010, so I got a good deal on this place.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by davescharf » Tue Jan 08 11:49 am

Some have to rent still because they have crappy credit, no savings, or a way to make a down payment. Buying is the best deal but people just can’t afford the up front payment now that banks require a sizable chunk up front
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Tue Jan 08 11:56 am

davescharf wrote:
Tue Jan 08 11:49 am
Some have to rent still because they have crappy credit, no savings, or a way to make a down payment. Buying is the best deal but people just can’t afford the up front payment now that banks require a sizable chunk up front
Well, it is always a good idea to not f*** up your credit. Definitely there are extenuating circumstances, that preclude some people from buying. I'm just saying, for people with the ability to buy, it makes no sense to pay more, or the same, for rent than for a mortgage. If the rent is less than mortgage, then there is more to look at, like time value of money, and how much return you can get via investments. But, if you're paying the same number per month whether you buy or rent, why wouldn't you want to gain equity?

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by davescharf » Tue Jan 08 1:01 pm

Totally agree. My main point is people may struggle with whatever minimum down payments are but they should buy rather than rent. I don’t even know what you need to put down now but I know people who save up for 5-10 years to get a down payment so they can make that switch
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Viking » Tue Jan 08 1:30 pm

Jane Fonda wrote:
Tue Jan 08 11:56 am
davescharf wrote:
Tue Jan 08 11:49 am
Some have to rent still because they have crappy credit, no savings, or a way to make a down payment. Buying is the best deal but people just can’t afford the up front payment now that banks require a sizable chunk up front
Well, it is always a good idea to not f*** up your credit. Definitely there are extenuating circumstances, that preclude some people from buying. I'm just saying, for people with the ability to buy, it makes no sense to pay more, or the same, for rent than for a mortgage. If the rent is less than mortgage, then there is more to look at, like time value of money, and how much return you can get via investments. But, if you're paying the same number per month whether you buy or rent, why wouldn't you want to gain equity?
You're assuming that property values will always go up. We saw that bubble burst not too long ago. In general, they will rise, but there are a lot of factors that can push them down.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Tue Jan 08 1:58 pm

Viking wrote:
Tue Jan 08 1:30 pm
Jane Fonda wrote:
Tue Jan 08 11:56 am
davescharf wrote:
Tue Jan 08 11:49 am
Some have to rent still because they have crappy credit, no savings, or a way to make a down payment. Buying is the best deal but people just can’t afford the up front payment now that banks require a sizable chunk up front
Well, it is always a good idea to not f*** up your credit. Definitely there are extenuating circumstances, that preclude some people from buying. I'm just saying, for people with the ability to buy, it makes no sense to pay more, or the same, for rent than for a mortgage. If the rent is less than mortgage, then there is more to look at, like time value of money, and how much return you can get via investments. But, if you're paying the same number per month whether you buy or rent, why wouldn't you want to gain equity?
You're assuming that property values will always go up. We saw that bubble burst not too long ago. In general, they will rise, but there are a lot of factors that can push them down.
In the short term, they may go down, but long term they will climb.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by MNGophers29 » Tue Jan 08 2:06 pm

davescharf wrote:
Tue Jan 08 1:01 pm
Totally agree. My main point is people may struggle with whatever minimum down payments are but they should buy rather than rent. I don’t even know what you need to put down now but I know people who save up for 5-10 years to get a down payment so they can make that switch
When I bought my first 4 houses, I was able to do it with no down payment. I made sizable amounts on each house when I sold it. My 5th house was after the credit/housing bubble and I must not have done research as I remember getting pissed at my banker when he asked for 5% down and then I had to explain where it came from.

There are times though where I would love to not own a house and let someone else deal with the headaches that come from it.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by The Rube » Tue Jan 08 9:17 pm

I simply don't want to deal with all the upkeep costs/personal maintenance of a house/townhouse, and while I'm rather set now on where I'll probably be for the next whatever amount of years, I can also just simply not renew my lease and move on.
MNGophers29 wrote:When the wife asks, I will just tell her "Rube said it was ok"!! LOL!

When you tell somebody somethin', it depends on what part of the country you're standin' in... as to just how dumb you are.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Tue Jan 08 9:32 pm

davescharf wrote:
Tue Jan 08 1:01 pm
Totally agree. My main point is people may struggle with whatever minimum down payments are but they should buy rather than rent. I don’t even know what you need to put down now but I know people who save up for 5-10 years to get a down payment so they can make that switch
Many can get a loan with crappy credit and zero down. It still happens I know some.

Generally lower priced homes with low multiples to their income - say 2X to 3X income - bad credit doesn’t always hold buyers back. What you can’t do is buy a really expensive home relative to your income - say 5X. If people limit their reach even poor credit can qualify.

But it still might not be a good idea. People have want to stay in a place long enough to cover the transaction costs. And budget for maintenance - owning isn’t free. You amortize maintenance over the life of owning and it’s not insignificant.

FD I have owned since 1983. The house I live in now I have owned since 1985. But I don’t think it’s the only or even smartest option for many people. It just depends.
Last edited by dryfly on Tue Jan 08 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Tue Jan 08 9:33 pm

The Rube wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:17 pm
I simply don't want to deal with all the upkeep costs/personal maintenance of a house/townhouse, and while I'm rather set now on where I'll probably be for the next whatever amount of years, I can also just simply not renew my lease and move on.
All really good reasons. More people should at least consider this.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by The Rube » Tue Jan 08 9:39 pm

dryfly wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:33 pm
The Rube wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:17 pm
I simply don't want to deal with all the upkeep costs/personal maintenance of a house/townhouse, and while I'm rather set now on where I'll probably be for the next whatever amount of years, I can also just simply not renew my lease and move on.
All really good reasons. More people should at least consider this.
It just depends on your lifestyle (single, family, etc) and what you want to deal with.
MNGophers29 wrote:When the wife asks, I will just tell her "Rube said it was ok"!! LOL!

When you tell somebody somethin', it depends on what part of the country you're standin' in... as to just how dumb you are.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Tue Jan 08 9:39 pm

The Rube wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:39 pm
dryfly wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:33 pm
The Rube wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:17 pm
I simply don't want to deal with all the upkeep costs/personal maintenance of a house/townhouse, and while I'm rather set now on where I'll probably be for the next whatever amount of years, I can also just simply not renew my lease and move on.
All really good reasons. More people should at least consider this.
It just depends on your lifestyle (single, family, etc) and what you want to deal with.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Slap Shot » Wed Jan 09 4:11 am

The Rube wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:17 pm
I simply don't want to deal with all the upkeep costs/personal maintenance of a house/townhouse, and while I'm rather set now on where I'll probably be for the next whatever amount of years, I can also just simply not renew my lease and move on.
Aren't there townhouses in which the majority of the upkeep is on the HOA - at least on the exterior? And a newer one wouldn't come with much need for internal upkeep for several years and if you bought similar in size to your current apartment probably wouldn't be the time consuming.
Currently under construction.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by george » Wed Jan 09 6:13 am

Slap Shot wrote:
Wed Jan 09 4:11 am
The Rube wrote:
Tue Jan 08 9:17 pm
I simply don't want to deal with all the upkeep costs/personal maintenance of a house/townhouse, and while I'm rather set now on where I'll probably be for the next whatever amount of years, I can also just simply not renew my lease and move on.
Aren't there townhouses in which the majority of the upkeep is on the HOA - at least on the exterior? And a newer one wouldn't come with much need for internal upkeep for several years and if you bought similar in size to your current apartment probably wouldn't be the time consuming.
Yup.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by The Rube » Wed Jan 09 8:00 am

Usually exterior is HOA and interior is on the tenant. Remember, though, on top of your payment, you are also paying HOA fees...
MNGophers29 wrote:When the wife asks, I will just tell her "Rube said it was ok"!! LOL!

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Wed Jan 09 8:20 am

Well, I'm all about building equity. f*** renting, and that waste of time. There is a bunch of money to be made, if you are smart about real estate. Hell, my house has almost doubled in value since I bought it. That is a pretty nice return that I would have thrown away had I decided to rent.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Wed Jan 09 9:49 am

Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 8:20 am
Well, I'm all about building equity. f*** renting, and that waste of time. There is a bunch of money to be made, if you are smart about real estate. Hell, my house has almost doubled in value since I bought it. That is a pretty nice return that I would have thrown away had I decided to rent.
Again depends on a lot of things. Location timing personal risk tolerance - etc.

I talked with my father about this before he died. He had bought seven homes over his life sold six the last one he lived in when he was dying... we later sold that at a wash. Of the six he sold three he made money on and three he lost money on. Meaning lost equity on the losers. He put money in but never got it all back. This is especially true if you include cost of maintenance and financing. If you are buying a house with a loan - you might own the home but are renting the money.

And even then he said the money he made from housing was just inflation. A couple of the ones he made killings on were in the late 60s and 70s. Inflation was double digits in parts of the 70s. So the profit was in funny money.

What’s the alternative? Renting for less and saving money in an IRA or 401K. Or investing in a business if that suits you. That only works if rents are lower than housing payments (including maintenance insurance taxes etc). It is some places and some times it is but not always.

And of course financial markets don’t always go up either.

So like above - there is no one size fits all answer to which route is the best one for building wealth. Equity in real estate is one way but you still have to eventually monetize it for it to pay off - that can be tricky. You can say your home has gone up X amount but until you sell it that’s just ‘imaginary profit’. Ask the folks who were saying that in 2006 how it worked out for them later. Some are still underwater today - I know some.

I can see both arguments - both can have merit based on people’s values. Both have some risks. Neither is right nor wrong. It just depends.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by HockeyBum » Wed Jan 09 9:52 am

One thing I want to add to this discussion. Just because you CAN buy doesn't necessarily mean you should. Too many people only compare the rent payment to the mortgage payment and don't factor in the cost of repairs and maintenance of owning a home.

If you're not handy and/or can't afford to hire someone to do repairs or maintain the property, please don't buy a home. There's nothing worse than trashy neighbors who let their property go to hell because they're either too lazy or can't afford to fix things. There are a few houses in my neighborhood that are rotting away from neglect. That affects the property values of everyone around you.

In the 10 years we've owned our home, we've probably spent about $60k in maintenance (new siding, windows, deck, kitchen counters, bathroom remodels, lighting, attic insulation, landscaping, irrigation, water softener, sump pump, wash machine, dishwasher... and I'm sure a whole bunch of other stuff that I'm forgetting). We usually budget about $5-7k a year for home repairs.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Slap Shot » Wed Jan 09 10:16 am

The Rube wrote:
Wed Jan 09 8:00 am
Usually exterior is HOA and interior is on the tenant. Remember, though, on top of your payment, you are also paying HOA fees...
Understood most HOA fees are not outrageous and that gain in equity will come in handy some day. As noted above one should budget for repair costs of course.
Currently under construction.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Wed Jan 09 11:35 am

dryfly wrote:
Wed Jan 09 9:49 am
Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 8:20 am
Well, I'm all about building equity. f*** renting, and that waste of time. There is a bunch of money to be made, if you are smart about real estate. Hell, my house has almost doubled in value since I bought it. That is a pretty nice return that I would have thrown away had I decided to rent.
Again depends on a lot of things. Location timing personal risk tolerance - etc.

I talked with my father about this before he died. He had bought seven homes over his life sold six the last one he lived in when he was dying... we later sold that at a wash. Of the six he sold three he made money on and three he lost money on. Meaning lost equity on the losers. He put money in but never got it all back. This is especially true if you include cost of maintenance and financing. If you are buying a house with a loan - you might own the home but are renting the money.

And even then he said the money he made from housing was just inflation. A couple of the ones he made killings on were in the late 60s and 70s. Inflation was double digits in parts of the 70s. So the profit was in funny money.

What’s the alternative? Renting for less and saving money in an IRA or 401K. Or investing in a business if that suits you. That only works if rents are lower than housing payments (including maintenance insurance taxes etc). It is some places and some times it is but not always.

And of course financial markets don’t always go up either.

So like above - there is no one size fits all answer to which route is the best one for building wealth. Equity in real estate is one way but you still have to eventually monetize it for it to pay off - that can be tricky. You can say your home has gone up X amount but until you sell it that’s just ‘imaginary profit’. Ask the folks who were saying that in 2006 how it worked out for them later. Some are still underwater today - I know some.

I can see both arguments - both can have merit based on people’s values. Both have some risks. Neither is right nor wrong. It just depends.
I completely disagree, and it is because of the part I bolded. You can't rent for less, that is my whole argument. I would have to pay more to rent. Which is why it is completely illogical to rent.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by dryfly » Wed Jan 09 1:57 pm

Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 11:35 am
dryfly wrote:
Wed Jan 09 9:49 am
Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 8:20 am
Well, I'm all about building equity. f*** renting, and that waste of time. There is a bunch of money to be made, if you are smart about real estate. Hell, my house has almost doubled in value since I bought it. That is a pretty nice return that I would have thrown away had I decided to rent.
Again depends on a lot of things. Location timing personal risk tolerance - etc.

I talked with my father about this before he died. He had bought seven homes over his life sold six the last one he lived in when he was dying... we later sold that at a wash. Of the six he sold three he made money on and three he lost money on. Meaning lost equity on the losers. He put money in but never got it all back. This is especially true if you include cost of maintenance and financing. If you are buying a house with a loan - you might own the home but are renting the money.

And even then he said the money he made from housing was just inflation. A couple of the ones he made killings on were in the late 60s and 70s. Inflation was double digits in parts of the 70s. So the profit was in funny money.

What’s the alternative? Renting for less and saving money in an IRA or 401K. Or investing in a business if that suits you. That only works if rents are lower than housing payments (including maintenance insurance taxes etc). It is some places and some times it is but not always.

And of course financial markets don’t always go up either.

So like above - there is no one size fits all answer to which route is the best one for building wealth. Equity in real estate is one way but you still have to eventually monetize it for it to pay off - that can be tricky. You can say your home has gone up X amount but until you sell it that’s just ‘imaginary profit’. Ask the folks who were saying that in 2006 how it worked out for them later. Some are still underwater today - I know some.

I can see both arguments - both can have merit based on people’s values. Both have some risks. Neither is right nor wrong. It just depends.
I completely disagree, and it is because of the part I bolded. You can't rent for less, that is my whole argument. I would have to pay more to rent. Which is why it is completely illogical to rent.
Now - in Twin Cities but in many places and times you can rent for less. And it switches back and forth over time as vacancies increase decrease among rentals and as housing inventory increases and decreases with interest rates and unemployment.

Right now in most of Twin Cities it favors ownership but that can change surprisingly fast and ‘trap’ owners in their home. If you don’t expect to move (we lived in same place 35 years) ... no problem. But if you have to relocate say for work and market tanks - the losses can set you back decades. I have seen it. In 70s, 80s and 00s.

Along parts of East and West coast you can rent right now at costs as low as half of what it costs to buy. Why? Because people often buy property based on speculation - they anticipate it will go up so buy and just hope to recover part of the cost via renting. They expect to make money via capital gain when they eventually flip the property. They might be right - it has happened in the past. They might also be horribly wrong as what happened in most of US throughout the 00s.

Do I think those owners in California and East Coast are crazy? No - because some people have made huge gains out there doing this. I have family who have. But it is risky. In 00s lots of people lost everything including a decades worth of credit rating.

It’s why there is no right or wrong answer - it just depends on a ton of factors and is very personal wrt how you want to live and the risk reward balance you are comfortable with.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by The Rube » Wed Jan 09 9:16 pm

Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 11:35 am
dryfly wrote:
Wed Jan 09 9:49 am
Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 8:20 am
Well, I'm all about building equity. f*** renting, and that waste of time. There is a bunch of money to be made, if you are smart about real estate. Hell, my house has almost doubled in value since I bought it. That is a pretty nice return that I would have thrown away had I decided to rent.
Again depends on a lot of things. Location timing personal risk tolerance - etc.

I talked with my father about this before he died. He had bought seven homes over his life sold six the last one he lived in when he was dying... we later sold that at a wash. Of the six he sold three he made money on and three he lost money on. Meaning lost equity on the losers. He put money in but never got it all back. This is especially true if you include cost of maintenance and financing. If you are buying a house with a loan - you might own the home but are renting the money.

And even then he said the money he made from housing was just inflation. A couple of the ones he made killings on were in the late 60s and 70s. Inflation was double digits in parts of the 70s. So the profit was in funny money.

What’s the alternative? Renting for less and saving money in an IRA or 401K. Or investing in a business if that suits you. That only works if rents are lower than housing payments (including maintenance insurance taxes etc). It is some places and some times it is but not always.

And of course financial markets don’t always go up either.

So like above - there is no one size fits all answer to which route is the best one for building wealth. Equity in real estate is one way but you still have to eventually monetize it for it to pay off - that can be tricky. You can say your home has gone up X amount but until you sell it that’s just ‘imaginary profit’. Ask the folks who were saying that in 2006 how it worked out for them later. Some are still underwater today - I know some.

I can see both arguments - both can have merit based on people’s values. Both have some risks. Neither is right nor wrong. It just depends.
I completely disagree, and it is because of the part I bolded. You can't rent for less, that is my whole argument. I would have to pay more to rent. Which is why it is completely illogical to rent.
Usually you do pay more for rent, but that sometimes is offset with not having to pay for any repairs, or using your personal time to repair things (and I'm not exactly handy with tools). A couple years ago, my old A/C went out. Called office up, and within 2 hours they were there with a replacement, installed. Boomdone.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Thu Jan 10 9:29 am

The Rube wrote:
Wed Jan 09 9:16 pm
Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 11:35 am
dryfly wrote:
Wed Jan 09 9:49 am
Jane Fonda wrote:
Wed Jan 09 8:20 am
Well, I'm all about building equity. f*** renting, and that waste of time. There is a bunch of money to be made, if you are smart about real estate. Hell, my house has almost doubled in value since I bought it. That is a pretty nice return that I would have thrown away had I decided to rent.
Again depends on a lot of things. Location timing personal risk tolerance - etc.

I talked with my father about this before he died. He had bought seven homes over his life sold six the last one he lived in when he was dying... we later sold that at a wash. Of the six he sold three he made money on and three he lost money on. Meaning lost equity on the losers. He put money in but never got it all back. This is especially true if you include cost of maintenance and financing. If you are buying a house with a loan - you might own the home but are renting the money.

And even then he said the money he made from housing was just inflation. A couple of the ones he made killings on were in the late 60s and 70s. Inflation was double digits in parts of the 70s. So the profit was in funny money.

What’s the alternative? Renting for less and saving money in an IRA or 401K. Or investing in a business if that suits you. That only works if rents are lower than housing payments (including maintenance insurance taxes etc). It is some places and some times it is but not always.

And of course financial markets don’t always go up either.

So like above - there is no one size fits all answer to which route is the best one for building wealth. Equity in real estate is one way but you still have to eventually monetize it for it to pay off - that can be tricky. You can say your home has gone up X amount but until you sell it that’s just ‘imaginary profit’. Ask the folks who were saying that in 2006 how it worked out for them later. Some are still underwater today - I know some.

I can see both arguments - both can have merit based on people’s values. Both have some risks. Neither is right nor wrong. It just depends.
I completely disagree, and it is because of the part I bolded. You can't rent for less, that is my whole argument. I would have to pay more to rent. Which is why it is completely illogical to rent.
Usually you do pay more for rent, but that sometimes is offset with not having to pay for any repairs, or using your personal time to repair things (and I'm not exactly handy with tools). A couple years ago, my old A/C went out. Called office up, and within 2 hours they were there with a replacement, installed. Boomdone.
I guess an occasional repair doesn't bother me. They're usually cheap and super easy to do. My AC went out (wall unit, as you know) and I went to Menards, bought one for $300, installed it, in less than 2 hours. Replaced the water heater (preventative, it was 18 years old, and I figured on borrowed time). Picked up one at Menards, hauled it in, and had it all hooked up, and pipes soldered in about 30 minutes. 95% of home repairs are not hard to do, or very time consuming.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by gopherguy06 » Mon Feb 18 8:04 pm

Just bought a new house. Anyone have a snowblower or mower reco?

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by george » Mon Feb 18 8:11 pm

gopherguy06 wrote:
Mon Feb 18 8:04 pm
Just bought a new house. Anyone have a snowblower or mower reco?
I recommend you get one of each. If yard or driveway is big enough, get a rider. You're welcome. 😉

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Beauner » Mon Feb 18 8:33 pm

gopherguy06 wrote:
Mon Feb 18 8:04 pm
Just bought a new house. Anyone have a snowblower or mower reco?
Depending on how big your driveway is, a family friend has an Ariens 2-stage rig that was really really nice. I think it was one of the Ariens Platinum models. His driveway is huge (parked a 26' UHaul on it and still could fit another car in front of it) and it steamed through the snow we got last Thurs (7-8 inches) without even breaking a sweat.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bladepuller » Mon Feb 18 8:37 pm

Ariens makes great snowblowers. Almost all of the others. No matter the color of the paint on them, are made by MTD.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Beauner » Mon Feb 18 8:39 pm

My brother in law brought his Craftsman 2-stage out to my parents new house Friday morning and it was an awfully nice rig too but the Ariens looked a little more high-end.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by skiier32 » Tue Feb 19 8:51 am

I just bought this one and love it.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Cub-Cadet-2 ... /301852617

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by gopherguy06 » Tue Feb 19 9:03 am

Beauner wrote:
Mon Feb 18 8:33 pm
gopherguy06 wrote:
Mon Feb 18 8:04 pm
Just bought a new house. Anyone have a snowblower or mower reco?
Depending on how big your driveway is, a family friend has an Ariens 2-stage rig that was really really nice. I think it was one of the Ariens Platinum models. His driveway is huge (parked a 26' UHaul on it and still could fit another car in front of it) and it steamed through the snow we got last Thurs (7-8 inches) without even breaking a sweat.
It is a fairly big driveway, four car garage that comes to a point.Probably 20-30 long.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by george » Tue Feb 19 9:30 am

Oh yeah, whatever you do, get the electric start option on the snowblower. Sure you can usually just pull start, but when it's cold and been sitting for a while you'll appreciate just holding the button down until it fires.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Thomps » Tue Feb 19 9:30 am

I have a cub cadet (home depot sale from 10 years ago). There are 4 features that I would definitely buy in a new snow blower if I ever need to buy one. 1) Two stage, more power to get through that crappy wet snow 2) Quick throw direction changer, my neighbors all have the kind where it takes like 20 hand cranks to change the direction of where the snow if being thrown. Mine is a quick joy stick that takes less than a second to change. 3) Separate drive wheels, I have two switches that allow me to put wheels into neutral instantly. So if I want to make a quick turn to the right, I just pull in the lever to put the right wheel in neutral, and the left wheel drives the unit into an immediate 180. Couple that with the quick change snow direction, I can fly through a driveway. 4) Electric start. It is a nice feature to have especially when the snow blower has sat for a while. I don't have to pull start unless I want to.

Biggest thing I can say though is to spend the extra cash and use non-oxygenated fuel in all your small engines. I don't use stabil anymore.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by HockeyBum » Tue Feb 19 9:41 am

I have a relatively newer Ariens Sno-Tek (24" 2-stage). It does the job, but if I had to get another one today, I'd probably choose something else. Thankfully it has the electric start option, because the pull-start is pretty much useless when it hasn't been used in a while.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by davescharf » Tue Feb 19 10:02 am

Funny - the only time I’ve used the electric start on my 22” Ariens is when I first got it to test if it works. It starts on no more than 2 pulls every single time and usually in the first
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bertogliat » Tue Feb 19 1:32 pm

davescharf wrote:
Tue Feb 19 10:02 am
Funny - the only time I’ve used the electric start on my 22” Ariens is when I first got it to test if it works. It starts on no more than 2 pulls every single time and usually in the first
My 12 year old Craftsman 2 stage pulls easy, like Sunday morning. But the damn transmission slips way too often.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bertogliat » Tue Feb 19 1:41 pm

Thomps wrote:
Tue Feb 19 9:30 am
Biggest thing I can say though is to spend the extra cash and use non-oxygenated fuel in all your small engines. I don't use stabil anymore.

The big debate. I use oxygenated and have never had a problem. No reason for seeking out E0.

In fact, I'd love for my mower to die and give me a reason to buy a Honda. But it keeps humming along since 2006.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by D2D » Tue Feb 19 4:46 pm

"TIP OF THE WEEK:
"The number of carburetors destroyed by ethanol blended gas has reached epidemic proportions. All gas sold around here, unless otherwise labeled, contains 10% ethanol (corn alcohol). Any seasonally used machine with a carburetor (snow blower, lawnmower)should not be run on ethanol blended gas. See recommendation below."

"Gasoline recommendations: Use only fresh, treated gas in your lawn equipment. Preferably ethanol free (non oxygenated) gas. Add a fuel stabilizing product to the gas immediately after purchase. Don't buy more gas than you will use in a month if using ethanol blended gas as it starts to break down after only 30 days. Some gas stations are now selling an "Unleaded Plus" that is cheaper than regular unleaded, but it contains 15% ethanol (E15). This product must not be used in any outdoor power equipment.
Ethanol-free / non-oxy / no alcohol added gas is available at select gas stations.
Google "non-oxy gas" for a list of gas stations near you that carry it."

https://bobsoutdoorpower.vpweb.com/Home.html

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Thomps » Tue Feb 19 4:55 pm

Bertogliat wrote:
Tue Feb 19 1:41 pm
Thomps wrote:
Tue Feb 19 9:30 am
Biggest thing I can say though is to spend the extra cash and use non-oxygenated fuel in all your small engines. I don't use stabil anymore.

The big debate. I use oxygenated and have never had a problem. No reason for seeking out E0.

In fact, I'd love for my mower to die and give me a reason to buy a Honda. But it keeps humming along since 2006.
Not a debate for me. My first year with this snow blower, I used normal gas. Went to start it the next year, and it wouldn't. Brought it in, yep, gummed fuel. Since that day, I only used non-oxy, and it always starts up. I don't even run the fuel down to nothing in the spring. Same with my trimmer, lawn tractor, and small lawn mower. The sit all winter with fuel in them, and they fire up first or second pull (tractor is keyed), every year. Besides, the cost of the fuel might be higher, but it might cost me an extra $5-$10 over the course of a year, but then I don't have to buy stabil.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by fightclub30 » Tue Feb 19 5:20 pm

D2D wrote:
Tue Feb 19 4:46 pm
"TIP OF THE WEEK:
"The number of carburetors destroyed by ethanol blended gas has reached epidemic proportions. All gas sold around here, unless otherwise labeled, contains 10% ethanol (corn alcohol). Any seasonally used machine with a carburetor (snow blower, lawnmower)should not be run on ethanol blended gas. See recommendation below."

"Gasoline recommendations: Use only fresh, treated gas in your lawn equipment. Preferably ethanol free (non oxygenated) gas. Add a fuel stabilizing product to the gas immediately after purchase. Don't buy more gas than you will use in a month if using ethanol blended gas as it starts to break down after only 30 days. Some gas stations are now selling an "Unleaded Plus" that is cheaper than regular unleaded, but it contains 15% ethanol (E15). This product must not be used in any outdoor power equipment.
Ethanol-free / non-oxy / no alcohol added gas is available at select gas stations.
Google "non-oxy gas" for a list of gas stations near you that carry it."

https://bobsoutdoorpower.vpweb.com/Home.html
I don't disagree, but got blasted when I suggested it to someone awhile ago. I think Neat Hat, or someone is a Diesel Mechanic and likely knows way more than I do, and said it wasn't really a problem anymore with modern equipment.

That being said, the Kwik Trip near my house switched to Non-oxy, ethanol free premium. While it is nice to have the option, it is 60-90 cents more per gallon than regular.

My car has a software for 91 octane and 93 octane (and a 104 file, but that is only in 2 places I know of...), and they gave up the 93 with ethanol to gain a much more expensive 91 without ethanol. It is, on average, $7-$8 more expensive per tank to get the 91 octane ethanol free near my house, than to fill up with 93 octane (I assume with ethanol) at the BP near my work. That $7-$8 per tank really adds up over time while the 93 Octane also adds a little more "fun" to my ride.

As a side note, my small equipment I go so sick of cleaning and/or replacing the carburetor (even with non-oxy) that I have been switching to Ryobi 40V. While not as powerful as my gas equipment, it gets the job done. The leaf blower and weed whip work just fine.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by D2D » Tue Feb 19 5:21 pm

I've always used non-oxy, in all my power equipment, but I:
> Also use a fuel stabilizer (a very little goes a long way!), and
> I always run the fuel dry at the end of each season.

If I have any extra left over in the gas can, I dump it in the tank of one of the vehicles, making sure the tank is almost full so it's diluted more.
Never had a problem with a carburetor gumming up.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jane Fonda » Tue Feb 19 6:53 pm

I never use non-oxy in my small engines, and have never had a problem. Put Sta-bil in it, and it will be perfectly fine.

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by MNGophers29 » Wed Feb 20 2:52 am

Jane Fonda wrote:
Tue Feb 19 6:53 pm
I never use non-oxy in my small engines, and have never had a problem. Put Sta-bil in it, and it will be perfectly fine.
This. I prefer Seafoam though.

The only play I used non-oxy is my 115hp Yamaha pontoon motor.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by MNGophers29 » Wed Feb 20 3:02 am

Bladepuller wrote:
Mon Feb 18 8:37 pm
Ariens makes great snowblowers. Almost all of the others. No matter the color of the paint on them, are made by MTD.
Not true. MTD does make a lot of stuff, but they don’t make most of the recognized brands.
https://movingsnow.com/2012/whats-the-difference/
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This quote was written on the chalkboard in a lockeroom in the old Ralph Engelstad arena my Squirt team used the day after the Gophers used it and came into the game ranked #1 in the nation and lost 6-1 to a second rate Whioux team.

Overhead on SiouxSports.com - Why does every thread always turn into a "Gopher" thread? Is there a secret infatuation with them?

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bertogliat » Wed Feb 20 7:38 am

I've never had to rebuild/repair/replace a carburetor in any of my small engines and all I have ever used is normal 97 octane gas. I sometimes use Sta-bil in the gas tank at the end of the season (1 bottle lasts a long time), but usually I run the tank dry and put motor oil in the spark plug holes (with a couple pulls of the starter rope.

That said, I don't use old gas and I have always had Craftsman equipment (Briggs and Stratton engines). According to Briggs and Stratton, as long as you use gas with 10% or lower ethanol, you're good to go.

https://www.briggsandstratton.com/eu/en ... tions.html

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by fightclub30 » Wed Feb 20 8:52 am

Bertogliat wrote:
Wed Feb 20 7:38 am
I've never had to rebuild/repair/replace a carburetor in any of my small engines and all I have ever used is normal 97 octane gas. I sometimes use Sta-bil in the gas tank at the end of the season (1 bottle lasts a long time), but usually I run the tank dry and put motor oil in the spark plug holes (with a couple pulls of the starter rope.

That said, I don't use old gas and I have always had Craftsman equipment (Briggs and Stratton engines). According to Briggs and Stratton, as long as you use gas with 10% or lower ethanol, you're good to go.

https://www.briggsandstratton.com/eu/en ... tions.html
I assume you mean 87 Octane. If not, would you mind sharing where you are finding 97 if such a thing exists?

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Jupiter » Wed Feb 20 9:12 am

I have a small Toro electric snowblower... That I plugin to use. It has actually worked well with the fluffy snow we've had this Feb. But I have a tiny driveway. I would seriously consider getting a large battery type of snowblower to replace mine. I wouldn't need to worry about gas or anything like that. Plus is would be more than powerful enough to clear my little driveway with plenty of battery to spare.

https://www.snowjoe.com/products/snow-j ... AgQAvD_BwE

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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bladepuller » Wed Feb 20 10:16 am

The SE corner of Mille Lacs is, IMHO, the snow drift capital of the world. In going from an non-winterized cabin to a 4 season lake home I feel I needed a serious snowblower. The Ariens pro-line machine I've bought and used to keep construction access is a beast. It cuts into a 2ft drift w/ a 26" cut and hurls the snow over the power lines from 30ft away. It is an expensive machine but since people will come here and need to move a lot of snow in a hurry to get in and unload it just see it as a necessary cost for the place
Also it will never be worn out in my lifetime.
Edited to get rid of a KFC piece.😀
Last edited by Bladepuller on Wed Feb 20 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bladepuller » Wed Feb 20 10:25 am

I use both Stabil and also Seafoam in all my bikes, mowers / blowers, and outboard for storage.
I also try to use non-alcohol gas in gas cans. Thus I will run 10% ethanol in bikes. Ethanol can actually help with knock so I'm willing to run it in the summer in my hot rod Dyna with a high compression built motor, but make it a point to have "pure" gas in the last few tanks in the fall.
I HATE :censored: RED! I'm now developing a strong dislike to green also.
TO GOALIES!!! :drunk:
:censored: More Cowbell...I want more GRIT!!!
BTW Keep the helmets on for the NA & intros...You ain't that special.
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Re: Consumer Research

Post by Bonin21 » Wed Feb 20 10:33 am

Bladepuller wrote:
Wed Feb 20 10:16 am
The Ariens pro-line machine I've bought and used to keep construction access is a breast.
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