Twins 2012 season

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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 4/24/12 3:11 pm

Composer wrote:1st inning. Mauer falls 0-2, singles to center
4th inning. Mauer falls 1-2, singles to left.
5th inning. Mauer walks on 6 pitches (no swings)
8th inning, Mauer gets to 3-2 count, grounds out.

1st point, Joe does not get all defensive when down 0-2. He's not Danny Valencia.

2nd point, with a man on 3rd and no outs with the 4 and 5 batters coming up, a full count is an excellent opportunity to do something with the ball. Drive a hit, hit a fly ball.

The pitcher beat him.

Yes he failed, but it is not the epic failure some are seeming to make of it.
Willingham and Morneau also failed.


What do his prior inning at bats have anything to do with the 8th inning? The situations aren't remotely similar. It's a non sequitur.

Morneau was intentionally walked...
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Tue 4/24/12 3:18 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:First, you guys are reading these graphs wrong. They are from the umpire's perspective. Mauer is on the right hand side of these graphs. The second pitch was high and inside.


I was wondering why Trix was saying it was up and away... That's how I was reading it too (from the umpire's perspective). I was a little confused.

dxmnkd316 wrote:His job is to get a hit there.


No. It isn't. His job is to get the run in. It's bottom 8 in a tie game and the potential game-winning run is on 3rd base. The job is to get that runner to move another 90 feet. No more, no less. If he does that with a hit, great. If he does that with a fly ball, great. If he does it with a moon-bounce grounder to SS, great. His job is to get the run in.

dxmnkd316 wrote:You want a guy who’s going to have an actual approach to an at bat rather than swinging at every strike. Just because it’s over the plate doesn’t mean you can get it to the outfield. The only pitch that could remotely meet that criteria is the second pitch.


A guy with as good of bat control as Mauer, in fact, most MLB hitters, should be able to hit a fly ball on virtually any pitch near the zone if they have the right approach. Please don't say "You want a guy who's going to have an actual approach to an at bat rather than swinging at every strike," like it's some words of wisdom. Every hitter in professional baseball has an approach. Some guys like to be aggressive early in the count because that is the most-likely time to see a fastball in the zone (because if the P gets ahead he can mess around with offspeed stuff)--guys like Delmon, Vlad, etc.. Other guys like to work the pitcher and see if they can force a mistake. This is Mauer's approach. It's fine for what he wants to do (hit for a high average and a good OBP). It sucks for driving in runs. He waits and waits and waits and if he gets into a hole he has to hit a pitcher's pitch. Which is why he ended up swinging at a nasty pitch on a 3-2 count. He gave himself no choice but to swing at that pitch by taking the first 2-3 that were around the zone and hittable. He was looking for a perfect pitch to hit rather than looking for a pitch to do his job.

dxmnkd316 wrote:A two-seam fastball thrown by a left hander. It’s high and tight and since it’s a two-seamer, it’s cutting back towards Mauer late. That’s a good way to shatter a bat and get you nothing. The other two strikes (a curve and a changeup) were hardly worth swinging at. The curve would have been especially egregious if he swung.

On top of all of that, this was the first time Mauer had faced this pitcher that night and the first pitch was an 83 mph slider only to be elevated to a 96 mph two-seamer.


I have a hard time believing a guy who has a career average fastball speed of 93mph has a 2-seamer that runs in there at 96mph with as much movement as you're saying, especially considering 2-seam fastballs generally are 1-3mph slower than 4-seamers.
Not to mention Mauer has seen Morales 2 previous times and was 1/2. It's not like he hasn't seen most (if not all) of what Morales has to offer.
Last edited by Beauner on Tue 4/24/12 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Composer » Tue 4/24/12 3:20 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
Composer wrote:1st inning. Mauer falls 0-2, singles to center
4th inning. Mauer falls 1-2, singles to left.
5th inning. Mauer walks on 6 pitches (no swings)
8th inning, Mauer gets to 3-2 count, grounds out.

1st point, Joe does not get all defensive when down 0-2. He's not Danny Valencia.

2nd point, with a man on 3rd and no outs with the 4 and 5 batters coming up, a full count is an excellent opportunity to do something with the ball. Drive a hit, hit a fly ball.

The pitcher beat him.

Yes he failed, but it is not the epic failure some are seeming to make of it.
Willingham and Morneau also failed.


What do his prior inning at bats have anything to do with the 8th inning? The situations aren't remotely similar. It's a non sequitur.

Morneau was intentionally walked...


It has to do with the fact that he is not as handcuffed at 0-2 as people were suggesting. THAT is the only reason I put them in. It goes directly toward his ability to put the ball in play regardless of the count.

Yes--I screwed up the Morneau thing. I also failed.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Tue 4/24/12 3:33 pm

Composer wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:
Composer wrote:1st inning. Mauer falls 0-2, singles to center
4th inning. Mauer falls 1-2, singles to left.
5th inning. Mauer walks on 6 pitches (no swings)
8th inning, Mauer gets to 3-2 count, grounds out.

1st point, Joe does not get all defensive when down 0-2. He's not Danny Valencia.

2nd point, with a man on 3rd and no outs with the 4 and 5 batters coming up, a full count is an excellent opportunity to do something with the ball. Drive a hit, hit a fly ball.

The pitcher beat him.

Yes he failed, but it is not the epic failure some are seeming to make of it.
Willingham and Morneau also failed.


What do his prior inning at bats have anything to do with the 8th inning? The situations aren't remotely similar. It's a non sequitur.

Morneau was intentionally walked...


It has to do with the fact that he is not as handcuffed at 0-2 as people were suggesting. THAT is the only reason I put them in. It goes directly toward his ability to put the ball in play regardless of the count.

Yes--I screwed up the Morneau thing. I also failed.


Just because he gets a hit with 2-strike counts doesn't mean it's a good strategy to let the pitcher get ahead of you.
He's a career .245 hitter on/after an 0-2 count, .248 on/after 1-2 count, and .260 on/after 2-2 count. He's a career .351 hitter on/after a 1-0 count, a career .290 hitter on/after an 0-1 count, .317 on/after 1-1 count, .346 on/after a 2-1 count.
So tell me, would you rather him let the pitcher get ahead 0-2 or 1-2 or have him swinging early on in the count (1-0, 0-1, 2-0, 2-1)?
It seems pretty obvious the P has the upper hand on him when he gets a 2-strike count on him. Mauer then becomes a defensive hitter--striving more to "make contact and put it in play" than to drive the ball, which is why he doesn't K much but also hits into a lot of double plays.

With a hitter as insanely talented as Mauer, I'd like to see him swinging earlier in the count and looking to drive the ball rather than "work the count" and end up getting in a hole where he gets defensive.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Tue 4/24/12 3:37 pm

trixR4kids wrote:Well I've mentioned having Mauer hit leadoff but there's this pervasive myth that the leadoff guy needs to be fast. Really though you want someone with a high OBP who takes the most walks there because he gets the most at bats simply based on the order. The D-backs keep putting Bloomquist in that spot because he can steal but he doesn't get on base enough that it matters and he's certainly not one of the three best hitters on the team (one of which should occupy that spot).


Thoroughly agree about the leadoff spot etc. You don't necessarily need a "speed guy" as much as a guy who gets on base a lot and is a smart baserunner. Ideally your 3-5 hitters will have enough power to score most runners from first base on XBHs anyways :mrgreen:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby pjoyn » Tue 4/24/12 3:42 pm

Beauner wrote:With a hitter as insanely talented as Mauer, I'd like to see him swinging earlier in the count and looking to drive the ball rather than "work the count" and end up getting in a hole where he gets defensive.


A career .323 hitter and YOU want to change his approach at the plate. When it comes down to it, sometimes the pitcher makes a good pitch and beats the hitter. It was a pretty epic fail that no one could drive Carroll in, but that's baseball.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 4/24/12 3:53 pm

pjoyn wrote:
Beauner wrote:With a hitter as insanely talented as Mauer, I'd like to see him swinging earlier in the count and looking to drive the ball rather than "work the count" and end up getting in a hole where he gets defensive.


A career .323 hitter and YOU want to change his approach at the plate. When it comes down to it, sometimes the pitcher makes a good pitch and beats the hitter. It was a pretty epic fail that no one could drive Carroll in, but that's baseball.


Count Roy Smalley in that group, too, as he said the other night almost verbatim what Beauner just did.

And batting avg is about the least meaningful hitting statistic there is in baseball. I know it's the holy grail to the Twins. It also helps to explain why we can be first in the division in average and 4th in runs. Cleveland happens to be last in avg and first in runs.
Last edited by Bushwood Gopher on Tue 4/24/12 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby psych » Tue 4/24/12 3:54 pm

sunbone wrote:
Handyman wrote:I am with Bushwood...in the 8th inning of a tie game his job is to knock in the run plain and simple. If it was anyone but Mauer this would not even be discussed.


I need to mark this down. The day Handy, BG and I all agreed on something.


I agree with you three as well. Let's set Armageddon at 11:59 p.m. tonight.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Tue 4/24/12 3:56 pm

pjoyn wrote:
Beauner wrote:With a hitter as insanely talented as Mauer, I'd like to see him swinging earlier in the count and looking to drive the ball rather than "work the count" and end up getting in a hole where he gets defensive.


A career .323 hitter and YOU want to change his approach at the plate. When it comes down to it, sometimes the pitcher makes a good pitch and beats the hitter. It was a pretty epic fail that no one could drive Carroll in, but that's baseball.


If he's going to continue batting in the 3-hole he needs to produce runs. Plain and simple. His approach right now hasn't driven in or scored 100 runs since he came up to the big leagues (5 full seasons, 1 half, and one 35 game) while batting in a run-producing spot.
I look at the year he had in 2009 (his MVP season) as a season he should be able to duplicate every season with his size and ability (although to expect him to hit .365 every year is delusional). He had 28 HRs, 98 RBIs and scored 94 runs. He's only topped 85 in those two categories two other times in his career (scored 86 once and 88 once). I don't think it's too much for somebody to ask for a guy who hits in the heart of the order and is being paid handsomely to produce/drive in runs. Do you?
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sunbone » Tue 4/24/12 4:11 pm

psych wrote:
sunbone wrote:
Handyman wrote:I am with Bushwood...in the 8th inning of a tie game his job is to knock in the run plain and simple. If it was anyone but Mauer this would not even be discussed.


I need to mark this down. The day Handy, BG and I all agreed on something.


I agree with you three as well. Let's set Armageddon at 11:59 p.m. tonight.


I just agreed with pretty much everything Beauner said too. Maybe it is time to make sure the shelter is stocked.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Tue 4/24/12 5:25 pm

Look no one is saying it is time to cut Mauer or that he was the only one who failed, but the fact is he did fail. His job is to bring in the run any which way he can...getting on base is an added bonus if he can. He didnt do it and it cost the team. It happens to everyone and there is nothing wrong with calling him out for it. My guess is if he knocks in the run there the same people up in arms of our critique would be bowing at his sideburns so why not call a spade a spade.

It isnt his fault we lost, but he did not help the team in that critical spot...he wasnt alone either.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Don Adams Wheel of Justice » Tue 4/24/12 7:25 pm

People need to calm down. Even great hitters fail once in a while. Failing to get a hit 7 out of every 10 times still gets a player in the hall of fame. Mauer didn't do his job. Next time, he probably hits a gapper. The Twins are a 75 win team at best this year. Deal with it.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby JWG » Tue 4/24/12 7:55 pm

Ugly game so far. Umpire giving us outs and we still can't score with the bases loaded outside of a questionable walk. Pitching off, defense a little off out in right...

The most exciting thing may be if Beckett gets into a fight with the Umpire.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris83 » Tue 4/24/12 10:29 pm

Valiant effort by the lads tonight, as they were outlasted by the Red Sox. On the plus side the pitching staff held Boston to 11 runs on 18 hits!
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Six Hole » Tue 4/24/12 10:37 pm

Chris83 wrote:Valiant effort by the lads tonight, as they were outlasted by the Red Sox. On the plus side the pitching staff held Boston to 11 runs on 18 hits!


/insert uber sarcastic "season's over" post here
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 4/24/12 10:39 pm

Chris83 wrote:Valiant effort by the lads tonight, as they were outlasted by the Red Sox. On the plus side the pitching staff held Boston to 11 runs on 18 hits!


As near as I can tell our starters are doing everything asked of them--don't walk anybody and throw it out over the plate so the opposing hitters can put it into play. We'd be fine if we played in a park that was 500 feet down the lines.

Willingham is going on paternity leave tomorrow and Benjy is on his way back up. Things should start getting better quickly.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Tue 4/24/12 10:44 pm

trixR4kids wrote:Mauer had a decent at bat he just got eaten up by a lefty. Red Sox look like crap recently so I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins won the next two.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Wanna try again? ;)
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Alby22 » Tue 4/24/12 10:44 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
Chris83 wrote:Valiant effort by the lads tonight, as they were outlasted by the Red Sox. On the plus side the pitching staff held Boston to 11 runs on 18 hits!


As near as I can tell our starters are doing everything asked of them--don't walk anybody and throw it out over the plate so the opposing hitters can put it into play. We'd be fine if we played in a park that was 500 feet down the lines.

Willingham is going on paternity leave tomorrow and Benjy is on his way back up. Things should start getting better quickly.

:goodpost:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Tue 4/24/12 11:18 pm

Handyman wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Mauer had a decent at bat he just got eaten up by a lefty. Red Sox look like crap recently so I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins won the next two.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Wanna try again? ;)

:ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh:

Yeah I just kinda posted something optimistic without really looking at today's pitching matchup or anything.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 4/24/12 11:22 pm

trixR4kids wrote:
Handyman wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Mauer had a decent at bat he just got eaten up by a lefty. Red Sox look like crap recently so I wouldn't be surprised if the Twins won the next two.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Wanna try again? ;)

:ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh:

Yeah I just kinda posted something optimistic without really looking at today's pitching matchup or anything.


Or our last 17 games.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Tue 4/24/12 11:34 pm

Or just the teams involved...
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Slap Shot » Wed 4/25/12 12:14 am

Even a 'crappy' Boston team made them look like a AA club. :oops:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Five-HoleFrenzy » Wed 4/25/12 7:37 am

Don Adams Wheel of Justice wrote:People need to calm down. Even great hitters fail once in a while. Failing to get a hit 7 out of every 10 times still gets a player in the hall of fame. Mauer didn't do his job. Next time, he probably hits a gapper. The Twins are a 75 win team at best this year. Deal with it.


Yes. This is what to expect from Minnesota professional teams these days. And why is everyone harshing on Mauer's mello. Poor guy just can't catch a break.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris83 » Wed 4/25/12 8:03 am

Six Hole wrote:
Chris83 wrote:Valiant effort by the lads tonight, as they were outlasted by the Red Sox. On the plus side the pitching staff held Boston to 11 runs on 18 hits!


/insert uber sarcastic "season's over" post here


No need for sarcasm when the facts speak so loudly and clearly on their own :biggrin2:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sunbone » Wed 4/25/12 9:51 am

Really frustrating watching the Twins help delay the firing of Bobby Valentine.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Tee09 » Wed 4/25/12 10:50 am

sunbone wrote:Really frustrating watching the Twins help delay the firing of Bobby Valentine.


How long until he's back on ESPN after the firing? I give it 2 days.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby bearpaw28 » Wed 4/25/12 1:02 pm

bearpaw28 wrote:
monty wrote:New definition of insanity,

Take first pitch for strike, inside out swing at second pitch for a foul down the left field line, work count to 2 and 2 and hit ground ball for out or double play. Do this 4 times a game expecting different results each trip to the plate.

Lets just call it the JoMo insanity rule.


I agree 100%. JoMo NEVER offers at a 1st pitch (even with runners in scoring position). MLB pitchers have consistently seen this...so they are not afraid to throw over the fat part of the plate on a 1st pitch to JoMo. Until JoMo decides that driving in runs is more important than his batting average...the insanity will continue.


As noted 9 days ago...the #3 batter in the order needs to focus more on DRIVING IN RUNS than his :censored: ing BATTING AVERAGE :anger:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 4/25/12 7:52 pm

sunbone wrote:Really frustrating watching the Twins help delay the firing of Bobby Valentine.


Provus and Gladden said that Bobby Valentine was doing his radio show for Boston earlier in the day, and that he had told the radio hosts how he changed his lineup card at the last minute because he thought Liam Hendriks was a lefty. I don't know how cosmically stupid you would have to be not to know which hand your opponent's pitcher threw a baseball with. If you had even the slightest doubt, it takes approximately 8 seconds to find out on 'pick your favorite sports website' that he's R/R. But beyond that, how could anybody actually admit you were this clueless out loud? If I'm John Henry (don't get excited Lars, not your steel driving idol!) or Larry Lucchino I would have a long look at the unemployed coaching ranks already...
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Hobey Baker » Wed 4/25/12 8:17 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
pjoyn wrote:
Beauner wrote:With a hitter as insanely talented as Mauer, I'd like to see him swinging earlier in the count and looking to drive the ball rather than "work the count" and end up getting in a hole where he gets defensive.


A career .323 hitter and YOU want to change his approach at the plate. When it comes down to it, sometimes the pitcher makes a good pitch and beats the hitter. It was a pretty epic fail that no one could drive Carroll in, but that's baseball.


Count Roy Smalley in that group, too, as he said the other night almost verbatim what Beauner just did.

And batting avg is about the least meaningful hitting statistic there is in baseball. I know it's the holy grail to the Twins. It also helps to explain why we can be first in the division in average and 4th in runs. Cleveland happens to be last in avg and first in runs.


In that at bat in the 8th, how many pitches did Mauer take before swinging He took something like four or five pitches before swinging if I am correct. He had one job in that at bat and it was to get Carroll home.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dryfly » Wed 4/25/12 9:02 pm

My wife, daughter, SIL and grandson are at the game tonight - the grandson is 3-1/2 and his first baseball game [a dozen hockey games or more though so doing fine there]. My SIL grew up in New England so a huge Red Sox fan ... he's probably having fun even though he thinks this year's team is pretty bad. The Fenway Anniversary was a killer. Probably wishes they would play the Twins a lot more.

I would love to have gone but was at a supplier conference all day in KC - drove home late. Even the Royals are winning tonight [so far].
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dryfly » Wed 4/25/12 9:49 pm

Oh oh ... Twins making a game of it ... might not be good for daughter's marital bliss.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Wed 4/25/12 9:57 pm

Beauner wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:First, you guys are reading these graphs wrong. They are from the umpire's perspective. Mauer is on the right hand side of these graphs. The second pitch was high and inside.


I was wondering why Trix was saying it was up and away... That's how I was reading it too (from the umpire's perspective). I was a little confused.

dxmnkd316 wrote:His job is to get a hit there.


No. It isn't. His job is to get the run in. It's bottom 8 in a tie game and the potential game-winning run is on 3rd base. The job is to get that runner to move another 90 feet. No more, no less. If he does that with a hit, great. If he does that with a fly ball, great. If he does it with a moon-bounce grounder to SS, great. His job is to get the run in.

dxmnkd316 wrote:You want a guy who’s going to have an actual approach to an at bat rather than swinging at every strike. Just because it’s over the plate doesn’t mean you can get it to the outfield. The only pitch that could remotely meet that criteria is the second pitch.



A guy with as good of bat control as Mauer, in fact, most MLB hitters, should be able to hit a fly ball on virtually any pitch near the zone if they have the right approach. Please don't say "You want a guy who's going to have an actual approach to an at bat rather than swinging at every strike," like it's some words of wisdom. Every hitter in professional baseball has an approach. Some guys like to be aggressive early in the count because that is the most-likely time to see a fastball in the zone (because if the P gets ahead he can mess around with offspeed stuff)--guys like Delmon, Vlad, etc.. Other guys like to work the pitcher and see if they can force a mistake. This is Mauer's approach. It's fine for what he wants to do (hit for a high average and a good OBP). It sucks for driving in runs. He waits and waits and waits and if he gets into a hole he has to hit a pitcher's pitch. Which is why he ended up swinging at a nasty pitch on a 3-2 count. He gave himself no choice but to swing at that pitch by taking the first 2-3 that were around the zone and hittable. He was looking for a perfect pitch to hit rather than looking for a pitch to do his job.

dxmnkd316 wrote:A two-seam fastball thrown by a left hander. It’s high and tight and since it’s a two-seamer, it’s cutting back towards Mauer late. That’s a good way to shatter a bat and get you nothing. The other two strikes (a curve and a changeup) were hardly worth swinging at. The curve would have been especially egregious if he swung.

On top of all of that, this was the first time Mauer had faced this pitcher that night and the first pitch was an 83 mph slider only to be elevated to a 96 mph two-seamer.


I have a hard time believing a guy who has a career average fastball speed of 93mph has a 2-seamer that runs in there at 96mph with as much movement as you're saying, especially considering 2-seam fastballs generally are 1-3mph slower than 4-seamers.
Not to mention Mauer has seen Morales 2 previous times and was 1/2. It's not like he hasn't seen most (if not all) of what Morales has to offer.


All you have to do is look at the graphs to see the speed and movement. It's a nasty little two-seamer.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Wed 4/25/12 10:38 pm

I'm also curious to see those who claim Mauer doesn't try to drive runs in, will reconcile the fact that this year he's averaging about .5 RBI per PA with RISP. His OPS with RISP is almost .300 higher than the season's RISP. 1/3 of his singles and 2/3 of his doubles have come from PAs with RISP. Yet these situations account for only 1/4 of his plate appearances.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Armadillo » Wed 4/25/12 10:42 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:I'm also curious to see those who claim Mauer doesn't try to drive runs in, will reconcile the fact that this year he's averaging about .5 RBI per PA with RISP. His OPS with RISP is almost .300 higher than the season's RISP. 1/3 of his singles and 2/3 of his doubles have come from PAs with RISP. Yet these situations account for only 1/4 of his plate appearances.


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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dryfly » Wed 4/25/12 10:45 pm

Armadillo wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:I'm also curious to see those who claim Mauer doesn't try to drive runs in, will reconcile the fact that this year he's averaging about .5 RBI per PA with RISP. His OPS with RISP is almost .300 higher than the season's RISP. 1/3 of his singles and 2/3 of his doubles have come from PAs with RISP. Yet these situations account for only 1/4 of his plate appearances.


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We on the same conference call?
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dryfly » Wed 4/25/12 10:49 pm

FWIW - appears Span 'can't do his job' either ... trailing 6-7, two out, bottom of the ninth, bases loaded ... strikes out.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 4/25/12 10:51 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:I'm also curious to see those who claim Mauer doesn't try to drive runs in, will reconcile the fact that this year he's averaging about .5 RBI per PA with RISP. His OPS with RISP is almost .300 higher than the season's RISP. 1/3 of his singles and 2/3 of his doubles have come from PAs with RISP. Yet these situations account for only 1/4 of his plate appearances.


Do you want us to reconcile these 19 games? Or should we reconcile 2004 - 2011 instead?
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Wed 4/25/12 10:52 pm

Yeah span is pretty much the worst twin ever.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Wed 4/25/12 11:08 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:I'm also curious to see those who claim Mauer doesn't try to drive runs in, will reconcile the fact that this year he's averaging about .5 RBI per PA with RISP. His OPS with RISP is almost .300 higher than the season's RISP. 1/3 of his singles and 2/3 of his doubles have come from PAs with RISP. Yet these situations account for only 1/4 of his plate appearances.


Do you want us to reconcile these 19 games? Or should we reconcile 2004 - 2011 instead?


Career:
OPS: .100 higher wRISP
Hits: about 1/3 come from PA wRISP
2B: 1/3 from RISP
PA: RISP make up for 1/4 of his PAs

now, let's take this a step further. RISP w/ two outs, his OPS is .150 higher

Shall I continue?
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 4/25/12 11:15 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:I'm also curious to see those who claim Mauer doesn't try to drive runs in, will reconcile the fact that this year he's averaging about .5 RBI per PA with RISP. His OPS with RISP is almost .300 higher than the season's RISP. 1/3 of his singles and 2/3 of his doubles have come from PAs with RISP. Yet these situations account for only 1/4 of his plate appearances.


Do you want us to reconcile these 19 games? Or should we reconcile 2004 - 2011 instead?


Career:
OPS: .100 higher wRISP
Hits: about 1/3 come from PA wRISP
2B: 1/3 from RISP
PA: RISP make up for 1/4 of his PAs

now, let's take this a step further. RISP w/ two outs, his OPS is .150 higher

Shall I continue?


Besides Michael Young, how many 10/100 guys do you know of that play major league baseball?

You are selectively using statistics to back a rather weak argument. Just curious, what's his slugging pct as compared to all other #3 hitters?

I think he's a terrific hitter for avg and one of the best contact hitters I've ever seen. I think he is a below avg run producer, particularly where he hits at in the order. I will cede you one thing--Gardenhire's insane insistence on having poor hitting 'fast' middle infielders bat 2nd has probably stunted Joe's RBI production marginally over his career.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Wed 4/25/12 11:21 pm

Lol. Ok. Abandon your original argument of "Mauer doesn't produce with RISP". I think I made a rather strong case that Mauer's offensive production INCREASES with RISP. Feel free to actually rebut it.

My favorite part of this post was how you make an argument then contradict it by wondering how much is gardenhire's fault.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 4/25/12 11:30 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:Lol. Ok. Abandon your original argument of "Mauer doesn't produce with RISP". I think I made a rather strong case that Mauer's offensive production INCREASES with RISP. Feel free to actually rebut it.

My favorite part of this post was how you make an argument then contradict it by wondering how much is gardenhire's fault.


What on God's green earth are you talking about? I never said he "doesn't produce with RISP." His averages are great wRISP--but you can still hit a lot of singles with guys on 2nd base and not drive in any runs.

The only thing I ever said was I thought compared to other #3 hitters he drives in less runs. And that he doesn't have a run producer's mentality. Why are you unwilling to look at the argument that I advanced originally? Show me what his run production is like compared to all other #3 hitters and then show me I'm wrong. And if you do, unlike you I'll actually admit it.

And re: the comment I made about Gardenhire, how is it contradictory? I am actually giving you credit with the numbers you advanced. What's your explanation for this seemingly tremendous run producer never driving in 100 RBI once while batting 3rd his whole career? Do you have one, or are you just going to continue the snark?
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Six Hole » Wed 4/25/12 11:31 pm

Joe is having a helluva season as far as OBP is concerned. However, he's slugging 30 points less than the team's leadoff hitter, which is good for, before tonight (although it didn't change much), 97th in the league. Given his salary, that's my beef with Big Pink. Sure, he spanks with RISP, but he also GIDP at an embarrassing mark for someone with such a good plate approach.

He's a helluva hitter with some flaws who makes too much money on a losing team.

(And he still should have been driving the ball the other night rather than trying to get on base.)
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Wed 4/25/12 11:37 pm

Jesus the Mauer disciples will just twist things to the point that even when I come on here to say "Mauer did a good job knocking in runs tonight in a losing effort and the rest of the team pretty much pissed their pants" I cant actually do it because they have to find some weird sabermetric to prove he is the next Babe Ruth. He is not a run producer no matter what stat you find...if he was his RBIs (the only stat that matters for run producers) would be higher. Let it go you just look foolish...

That said, kudos to Mauer for getting the big hit. Too bad the rest of this team played like a triple A squad for the most part with RISP. This lineup minus 3-4 guys is an absolute joke.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Wed 4/25/12 11:41 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:Lol. Ok. Abandon your original argument of "Mauer doesn't produce with RISP". I think I made a rather strong case that Mauer's offensive production INCREASES with RISP. Feel free to actually rebut it.

My favorite part of this post was how you make an argument then contradict it by wondering how much is gardenhire's fault.


Who said he doesn't produce with RISP? We were arguing that he doesn't change his approach based on the situation, and doesn't change his approach to drive in runs late in the game. He's a good hitter. He gets hits when there's nobody on, he gets hits when somebody is on. Obviously the guy gets hits with RISP or he'd never drive anybody in because he doesn't hit the ball over the fence on a consistent basis. Singles with runners on 2B don't always score runs.

His average in "high leverage" (late and close) situations is 35 points lower than his career average (.288). His OPS is lower. His OBP is lower. He has lower slugging%.
Those are things we are talking about.

Your little Sabermetric stats look great on paper, but if you've ever watched him late in the game with one specific job to do (get the runner in) he doesn't change his approach to do it. He goes up there with the "I want to get on base!" approach. That's what we're arguing. It's a great approach for a table-setter. He's batting in a run-producing slot.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 4/25/12 11:43 pm

Handyman wrote:Jesus the Mauer disciples will just twist things to the point that even when I come on here to say "Mauer did a good job knocking in runs tonight in a losing effort and the rest of the team pretty much pissed their pants" I cant actually do it because they have to find some weird sabermetric to prove he is the next Babe Ruth. He is not a run producer no matter what stat you find...if he was his RBIs (the only stat that matters for run producers) would be higher. Let it go you just look foolish...

That said, kudos to Mauer for getting the big hit. Too bad the rest of this team played like a triple A squad for the most part with RISP. This lineup minus 3-4 guys is an absolute joke.


One of the funniest things I've ever read. :lol: And so true, too. All of it.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 4/25/12 11:45 pm

Beauner wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:Lol. Ok. Abandon your original argument of "Mauer doesn't produce with RISP". I think I made a rather strong case that Mauer's offensive production INCREASES with RISP. Feel free to actually rebut it.

My favorite part of this post was how you make an argument then contradict it by wondering how much is gardenhire's fault.


Who said he doesn't produce with RISP? We were arguing that he doesn't change his approach based on the situation, and doesn't change his approach to drive in runs late in the game. He's a good hitter. He gets hits when there's nobody on, he gets hits when somebody is on. Obviously the guy gets hits with RISP or he'd never drive anybody in because he doesn't hit the ball over the fence on a consistent basis. Singles with runners on 2B don't always score runs.

His average in "high leverage" (late and close) situations is 35 points lower than his career average (.288). His OPS is lower. His OBP is lower. He has lower slugging%.
Those are things we are talking about.

Your little Sabermetric stats look great on paper, but if you've ever watched him late in the game with one specific job to do (get the runner in) he doesn't change his approach to do it. He goes up there with the "I want to get on base!" approach. That's what we're arguing. It's a great approach for a table-setter. He's batting in a run-producing slot.


AMEN. Wow do you get it. :goodpost:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Wed 4/25/12 11:47 pm

Beauner wrote:Your little Sabermetric stats look great on paper, but if you've ever watched him late in the game with one specific job to do (get the runner in) he doesn't change his approach to do it. He goes up there with the "I want to get on base!" approach. That's what we're arguing. It's a great approach for a table-setter. He's batting in a run-producing slot.


Who needs to watch the game...they can just look at some number and know what will happen. That is why Nomah is a hall of famer and no one remembers who Derek Jeter is ;)
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Hobey Baker » Wed 4/25/12 11:54 pm

Beauner wrote:Your little Sabermetric stats look great on paper, but if you've ever watched him late in the game with one specific job to do (get the runner in) he doesn't change his approach to do it. He goes up there with the "I want to get on base!" approach. That's what we're arguing. It's a great approach for a table-setter. He's batting in a run-producing slot.


Well said.

Is the home run issue put to bed also? I was at the game Monday and saw 4 HR's.. It is the Twins approach to hitting that is the problem. It is time for the Twins to get rid of Vavra and bring in Brunansky ..
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby gopher6 » Thu 4/26/12 1:24 pm

this team looks like a Calvin Griffith team do not be surprised if crowds dwindle down to 13-14000 a game if not less :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh: :ahhh:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby rowshkex » Thu 4/26/12 1:36 pm

Has anyone considered the fact that Mauer may HAVE changed his approach at the plate, but just didn't produce...?
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sunbone » Thu 4/26/12 1:40 pm

rowshkex wrote:Has anyone considered the fact that Mauer may HAVE changed his approach at the plate, but just didn't produce...?


I would consider it. If I didn't have eyes.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Thu 4/26/12 1:47 pm

sunbone wrote:
rowshkex wrote:Has anyone considered the fact that Mauer may HAVE changed his approach at the plate, but just didn't produce...?


I would consider it. If I didn't have eyes.


:lol: Tremendous.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby h8red » Thu 4/26/12 1:57 pm

Don Adams Wheel of Justice wrote:People need to calm down. Even great hitters fail once in a while. Failing to get a hit 7 out of every 10 times still gets a player in the hall of fame. Mauer didn't do his job. Next time, he probably hits a gapper. The Twins are a 75 win team at best this year. Deal with it.


Actually, the 1st & 3rd base coach failed...Gardy actually called for a suicide squeeze 3 batters in a row & it did not get relayed to the batters or the Carroll. They missed the sign.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby rowshkex » Thu 4/26/12 3:19 pm

sunbone wrote:
rowshkex wrote:Has anyone considered the fact that Mauer may HAVE changed his approach at the plate, but just didn't produce...?


I would consider it. If I didn't have eyes.


So if he doesn't swing at something, it means he didn't change his approach? If he expected one pitch and got another, he may not swing regardless of how good it is.

I really don't care whether or not he's a great situational hitter or not--I don't watch enough to see him bat. I just think it's hilarious how everyone here presumes to know that much about how the hitters approach at bats...
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sunbone » Thu 4/26/12 3:29 pm

rowshkex wrote:
sunbone wrote:
rowshkex wrote:Has anyone considered the fact that Mauer may HAVE changed his approach at the plate, but just didn't produce...?


I would consider it. If I didn't have eyes.


So if he doesn't swing at something, it means he didn't change his approach? If he expected one pitch and got another, he may not swing regardless of how good it is.

I really don't care whether or not he's a great situational hitter or not--I don't watch enough to see him bat. I just think it's hilarious how everyone here presumes to know that much about how the hitters approach at bats...


I'm not going to get into any one specific at bat Row. But when you see a guy over the course of his career take as many fastballs down the middle for strike one, regardless of the game situation, as Mauer does it doesn't take a mind reader to decipher what the guy's approach is to hitting.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby streakygopher » Thu 4/26/12 4:27 pm

I know Mauer will always get the criticism because he signed the big contract, but to talk about Joe Mauer's hitting approach during this early season meltdown really has me cracking up. :biggrin2:
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sunbone » Thu 4/26/12 4:46 pm

streakygopher wrote:I know Mauer will always get the criticism because he signed the big contract, but to talk about Joe Mauer's hitting approach during this early season meltdown really has me cracking up. :biggrin2:


I think we all know it isn't the #1 problem on this team right now. But for some of us this it isn't like this is something that just came up. It has been an issue for years. I don't want you to get a side ache so I won't mention again that the #3 hitter and guy taking up 25% of the payroll is too stubborn to occasionally try to be a little more aggressive and attempt to drive a pitch early in the count when the situation calls for it.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Thu 4/26/12 4:55 pm

You guys are crazy...Mauer is obviously Juan Gonzalez 2.0 which is why he knocks in so many runs ;)

And row, it has been talked about ad naseum since he came up what his approach to batting is and nothing has changed. Joe is what he is...on any other team though he never bats third because of what he is.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Tee09 » Thu 4/26/12 5:08 pm

Handyman wrote:You guys are crazy...Mauer is obviously Juan Gonzalez 2.0 which is why he knocks in so many runs ;)


He's more like Mark Grace 2.0 if Grace was less durable and worse defensively. FWIW, Grace hit in the 3 spot.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Greyeagle » Thu 4/26/12 5:41 pm

Handyman wrote:Who needs to watch the game...they can just look at some number and know what will happen. That is why Nomah is a hall of famer and no one remembers who Derek Jeter is ;)


Computers are never wrong. Right? :biggrin2:

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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Slap Shot » Thu 4/26/12 8:47 pm

I've never been anti-Mauer, but I'm not so sure if that hit doesn't ricochet off the pitcher it wouldn't have resulted in another vintage GIDP. Stop trying to slap it through infield and use your given talent drive the goddamn ball.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Alby22 » Thu 4/26/12 9:16 pm

Slap Shot wrote:I've never been anti-Mauer, but I'm not so sure if that hit doesn't ricochet off the pitcher it wouldn't have resulted in another vintage GIDP. Stop trying to slap it through infield and use your given talent drive the goddamn ball.

This
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Fri 4/27/12 12:15 am

Tee09 wrote:He's more like Mark Grace 2.0 if Grace was less durable and worse defensively. FWIW, Grace hit in the 3 spot.


You really dont want to know what I think of Mark Grace. (or Sandburg for that matter)

I was not going to comment on the ricochet because I dont think it would have been a DP and sometimes you have to be lucky.
If you disagree with me, that is aok by me :) :dup:

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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dryfly » Fri 4/27/12 1:01 am

KC coming in RED HOT with a two game winning streak ... for them that's red hot.

Could be some wild baseball this weekend.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby monty » Fri 4/27/12 8:22 am

dryfly wrote:KC coming in RED HOT with a two game winning streak ... for them that's red hot.

Could be some bad baseball this weekend.


Fixed your post.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Fri 4/27/12 8:30 am

Well I guess the "I hate everything Mauer" folks will never be satisfied.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Fri 4/27/12 9:43 am

Just like the disciples will never question :lol:

So Delmon pretty much killed his career with this little gem: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2012 ... rested.php
If you disagree with me, that is aok by me :) :dup:

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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Riff Raff » Fri 4/27/12 10:26 am

Slap Shot wrote:I've never been anti-Mauer, but I'm not so sure if that hit doesn't ricochet off the pitcher it wouldn't have resulted in another vintage GIDP. Stop trying to slap it through infield and use your given talent drive the goddamn ball.



Correct.....I was at the game and you could clearly see the SS already in position to take the ground ball, take 2 steps to touch 2nd and then throw to 1st for the DP. Mauer might not have even been within 15 feet of 1st by the time the ball got there.

I lost a beer on that play betting he'd hit into a DP...
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby JWG » Fri 4/27/12 10:57 am

Handyman wrote:Just like the disciples will never question :lol:

So Delmon pretty much killed his career with this little gem: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2012 ... rested.php


1) They couldn't find a pic of him in a Tiger's uniform? Didn't need that graphic reminder he wore a Twins jersey...

2) Priceless...

was traded to the Tigers last August for a [strikethrough] bag of peanuts [/strikethrough] Lester Oliveros.


3) Also priceless...

maybe now Twins fans have an explanation for Young's notorious outfield misadventures. (My brother and I, while watching him seemingly mimic an uncoordinated newbie ice skater while trying to play left field, used to refer to the spectacle as "Delmon On Ice").
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Five-HoleFrenzy » Fri 4/27/12 10:59 am

The compartmentalizing and picking out certain phrases from people's posts to make your own point about a cerain hitter is what is funny to me.

It seems pretty simple to me. If you are ok with a no. 3 hitter being an on-base, hit for average guy, and the Twins paying big bucks for that, then Mauer is "your guy". If you think that the Twins should be getting more power and runs driven in from the no. 3 spot considering the dollars invested, then Mauer really isn't "the guy" for you. And this isn't just a critism based on what is happening this year as it has been this way for quite awhile. I guess agreeing to disagree on the issue is the best route to take at this point since neither side is going to change the other's viewpoint.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby JWG » Fri 4/27/12 11:02 am

Five-HoleFrenzy wrote:The compartmentalizing and picking out certain phrases from people's posts to make your own point


This.

:biggrin2: Sorry, couldn't resist...
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Five-HoleFrenzy » Fri 4/27/12 11:04 am

I did tee it up...
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sec 16 row16 seat 16 17 » Fri 4/27/12 5:17 pm

are we getting another tigers reject.
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Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Hobey Baker » Fri 4/27/12 9:35 pm

Twins just got jobbed in the bottom of the 7th with the game tied and runners in scoring position.
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