NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

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NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Jupiter » Thu 2/23/12 1:30 am

After posting some BigTen financial numbers on USCHO.com this afternoon that added 2010 figures, I decided to see what all of MEN'S college hockey did for 2010. So I decided to get those numbers and see what they looked like. I got the numbers from the Equity in Athletics website by the Department of Education. You can find that site here: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

So I have the overall numbers. Then current conference numbers. Then just for fun I rearranged the conference numbers to show what it will look like in 2013 when everything changes.

Some notes on the numbers:
- This is just fun project I wanted to do. I can't officially tell you that the numbers are spot on. So don't complain to me about it. I am just giving you the numbers that I pulled from the website.

- I have no idea how or why many schools break EXACTLY even. Maybe they are just playing with the numbers or something. I really don't know. All I can do is just post the numbers I have.

- Two hockey schools do not provide numbers. Those 2 are Air Force and Army. I am guessing it has something to do with them being Military schools.

- I pulled what they call the 2010 numbers. Those are the most recent numbers available. Now I have no way of know exactly the time period for them. Are they calendar year 2010 numbers? OR are they 2009-10 school year numbers. I just don't know.

Some of my observations:
- There is little doubt that Minnesota is the big dog when it comes to money in college hockey. No one is close to them. MN made more than 3x the profit on the next closest team UND in 2010. They keep there expenses low for such a huge program and then knock it out of the park with revenue. It will be interesting to see how far the gap widens in future years with the new seating costs coming.

- The current WCHA is the KING. Profiting $9.5 million in 2010. Hockey East is the closest competitor with $1.9 million. The CCHA is getting killed by MSU, OSU and ND.

- The future WCHA will be a complete joke. The B1G and NCHC will be making all the money and Hockey East will take a hit adding Notre Dame if they can't turn their numbers around. I am guessing that with a new rink, those Notre Dame numbers will change quickly.


What are your thoughts and observations?

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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby larby » Thu 2/23/12 2:10 am

Not sure how these numbers work. I thought travel might be a big reason why Denvers expenses were so high, but how does that explain Michigan Tech and the Alaska schools making a profit? How do some of these schools have such high expenses vs the ones that have to travel more? Mich Tech and AA make a profit and BC just breaks even at 3.7 mil?

Hate to say it but these numbers tell you why Maturi..
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Jupiter » Thu 2/23/12 11:18 am

Some of the numbers a really goofy and I would love to hear the reason why so many break exactly even.... but I thought it was still worth posting the numbers.
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby gopheritall » Thu 2/23/12 11:31 am

Looks to me like the Big Ten conference is a joke. MN carries whatever conference they are in. I would be thrilled if I were OSU or MSU and now got to freeload off of MN and WI. I also expect Penn State to drag us down with some big red numbers.

Given all of the talk about which state is the best hockey state it would be interesting to see a break-down that way. However, I'm not interested enough to do it. :)
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Beauner » Thu 2/23/12 11:53 am

I like that Denver lost 1 dollar.
1 dollar? Out of the hundreds of thousands they spend/earn, they come up short by 1 dollar?
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Composer » Thu 2/23/12 12:23 pm

Denver lost $1? Come-on, beancounter, you can wriggle that up to breaking even. (There must have been some reason they wanted to be losing money)
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Tiggsy » Thu 2/23/12 12:39 pm

It was probably a dollar that the AD lost in a vending machine while visiting the hockey arena.
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby patatoe » Thu 2/23/12 1:53 pm

These numbers are pretty funny. I went to the website looking for more detail (of which there is none) and found the UND Women's revenue number. The UND Women's Hockey team generated almost $1.1 million in revenue in 2010-11. Looking at collegehockeystats, last year they had 20 home games. Looking through the box scores I would guess at maybe an average attendence of 750. Single adult ticket prices are $7. So 20 games X 750 attendence X $7 = $105,000. This is of course a best case senario because it assumes everyone pays the highest rate possible. However, students are free, men's season tickets include women's season tickets and anyone who does buy women's season tickets pays less than $3 each.

Either A) they have great TV, merchandise, etc. deals or B) the numbers are completely false.
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby GrandForksGopher » Thu 2/23/12 2:10 pm

patatoe wrote:These numbers are pretty funny. I went to the website looking for more detail (of which there is none) and found the UND Women's revenue number. The UND Women's Hockey team generated almost $1.1 million in revenue in 2010-11. Looking at collegehockeystats, last year they had 20 home games. Looking through the box scores I would guess at maybe an average attendence of 750. Single adult ticket prices are $7. So 20 games X 750 attendence X $7 = $105,000. This is of course a best case senario because it assumes everyone pays the highest rate possible. However, students are free, men's season tickets include women's season tickets and anyone who does buy women's season tickets pays less than $3 each.

Either A) they have great TV, merchandise, etc. deals or B) the numbers are completely false.

The womens jerseys sell pretty well. Not sure it's as much as the numbers say, but even at mens games many people will be wearing their womens jerseys because they like the look
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby SkiUMahLaw » Thu 2/23/12 2:53 pm

patatoe wrote:These numbers are pretty funny. I went to the website looking for more detail (of which there is none) and found the UND Women's revenue number. The UND Women's Hockey team generated almost $1.1 million in revenue in 2010-11. Looking at collegehockeystats, last year they had 20 home games. Looking through the box scores I would guess at maybe an average attendence of 750. Single adult ticket prices are $7. So 20 games X 750 attendence X $7 = $105,000. This is of course a best case senario because it assumes everyone pays the highest rate possible. However, students are free, men's season tickets include women's season tickets and anyone who does buy women's season tickets pays less than $3 each.

Either A) they have great TV, merchandise, etc. deals or B) the numbers are completely false.


I have been saying for a long time that you cannot trust those numbers as being truly indicative of actual revenues and expenses. You can prove lots of things by changing some accounting assumptions, and none of them are "wrong"; rather, they just rely on different assumptions.

In Wisconsin's case, for example, it looks like they allocate a certain amount of amortized capital costs of the Kohl Center to the men's and women's hockey team; however, that practice is not uniform, as amortized costs of Ridder aren't built into the Gopher's women's team numbers; nor are the costs of TCF Bank Stadium rolled into the football team's costs; at the same time, you don't find parking revenue as income to the athletic department at UMN; but you would at Ohio State.

Keep in mind that the numbers as presented are intended for Title IX reporting requirements. So each school will likely report the numbers using a methodology most advantageous for itself in view of Title IX. With that in mind, it is likely all are minimizing men's revenues-- and perhaps maximizing women's team costs-- so as to demonstrate their funding commitment for Title IX. That means you may allocate a new zamboni for the women's team even though it may be shared by both.

"Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of all people know that."
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby SkiUMahLaw » Thu 2/23/12 2:55 pm

GrandForksGopher wrote:
patatoe wrote:These numbers are pretty funny. I went to the website looking for more detail (of which there is none) and found the UND Women's revenue number. The UND Women's Hockey team generated almost $1.1 million in revenue in 2010-11. Looking at collegehockeystats, last year they had 20 home games. Looking through the box scores I would guess at maybe an average attendence of 750. Single adult ticket prices are $7. So 20 games X 750 attendence X $7 = $105,000. This is of course a best case senario because it assumes everyone pays the highest rate possible. However, students are free, men's season tickets include women's season tickets and anyone who does buy women's season tickets pays less than $3 each.

Either A) they have great TV, merchandise, etc. deals or B) the numbers are completely false.

The womens jerseys sell pretty well. Not sure it's as much as the numbers say, but even at mens games many people will be wearing their womens jerseys because they like the look



They also could shift some revenue from seat licenses for the men's team to be revenue for the women's team as well, or do the same for suites/clubroom. It doesn't mean people will use them, but it is a good way to take pressure off a budget that will otherwise not support itself.
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby patatoe » Thu 2/23/12 3:05 pm

SkiUMahLaw wrote:Keep in mind that the numbers as presented are intended for Title IX reporting requirements. So each school will likely report the numbers using a methodology most advantageous for itself in view of Title IX. With that in mind, it is likely all are minimizing men's revenues-- and perhaps maximizing women's team costs-- so as to demonstrate their funding commitment for Title IX. That means you may allocate a new zamboni for the women's team even though it may be shared by both.



I wondered about that. I thought about coming up with some clever formula using the "IX"
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby thinkbui » Thu 2/23/12 3:20 pm

Jup, didn't you say a few years ago that UW was operating in the red (well in more ways that one ;) ) or was that their women's program that was dragging their profits down?
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby SkiUMahLaw » Thu 2/23/12 3:45 pm

Given my complaints above, it is interesting to examinethe expenses AS A GROUP, which may provide a much better ballpark figure as to what is really being spent on men's hockey-- outliers can be offset that way.

The average school spends around $1.6M on men's hockey (from my quick guess-- approximately $91M / 56 reporting schools); it should be clear (but really, unsurprising) that conferences tend to spend similarly; the caveat, however, is that the difference between the old WCHA (less MN and Wisconsin) and the new WCHA/NCHC numbers isn't a lot--especially when the NCHC chooses to bring along SCSU despite its relatively small reported expenditures. Hence the big uproar about the NCHC split-off.
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Jupiter » Thu 2/23/12 4:19 pm

thinkbui wrote:Jup, didn't you say a few years ago that UW was operating in the red (well in more ways that one ;) ) or was that their women's program that was dragging their profits down?

It's their women's program.

The 2010 UW Women's numbers according to that website:
Revenue: $597,907.00
Expenses: $2,897,906.00
Total: ($2,299,999.00)
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Hobey Baker » Thu 2/23/12 5:24 pm

thinkbui wrote:Jup, didn't you say a few years ago that UW was operating in the red (well in more ways that one ;) ) or was that their women's program that was dragging their profits down?



Mens football program!!!
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby Norm » Thu 2/23/12 6:15 pm

These figures are probably as reliable as the ones pro sports owners use to show how much they're losing.
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Re: NCAA Men's Hockey. Who's making money? Who's not?

Postby thinkbui » Thu 2/23/12 7:07 pm

Norm wrote:These figures are probably as reliable as the ones pro sports owners use to show how much they're losing.


To be fair though, they are less likely to fool the DOE than they are the donors and alumni. Recall how UW likes to claim just their gameday expenses as their total expenses, which is far smaller than what the DOE reports.
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