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Headline News 2008

I have decided to put old discussions that have been locked in to this area. Not everything will be put here, just the larger and more important ones.

Re: Headline News 2008

Postby SkiUMahLaw » Tue 12/23/08 11:26 am

gator wrote:
Zwak wrote:Woman pulls friend from car wreck. California Supreme Court rules that victim can sue friend since her actions rendered her a paraplegic.


Serious? Another case of "dumbing down of America".



Sorry for the delay in my response....

First off, like Texas, Minnesota's "Good Samaritan" law requiresyou to give assistance to an individual in need.
Minn. Stat. 604A.01 Subd. 1 (2008): A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person.
It is a petty misdemeanor for failing to give assistance-- but that is a criminal penalty-- and does not limit civil penalties from a victim.

Subdivision 2 of the same statute, however, gives a general immunity for any acts or omissions for members of the general public who are "Good Samaritans". (note: does not include EMTs or those working for compensation)
A person who, without compensation or the expectation of compensation, renders emergency care, advice, or assistance at the scene of an emergency or during transit to a location where professional medical care can be rendered, is not liable for any civil damages as a result of acts or omissions by that person in rendering the emergency care, advice, or assistance...


HOWEVER, the statute goes on that if the Good Samaritan "acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care, advice, or assistance", they lose that general immunity.

What does that mean? It means we could all potentially be liable if we don't act reasonably in providing emergency services.

That shouldn't be a threat-- really, it is just common sense. We don't want to reward the guy who screams "FIRE" in a crowded theater just because someone lit a match-- rather, there is a common-sense duty to take remedial actions commensurate with the harm that is presented. If you're on 35W and the car in front of you lightly hits the bumper of the car in front of them, you jumping out of your car, breaking their window and pulling the driver out into oncoming traffic which breaks their leg is likely not an appropriate response. But if that car in front of them is a Pinto (which have a history of blowing up on such bumper-taps) and there is a fire in that car, that action is probably appropriate. I realize this is an extremely gray area-- I think all courts and legislatures do-- but there still needs to be protection against the outlier/rogue rescuer who negligently or recklessly makes matters worse by their participation.

In regard the California case, a few notes: (1.) This Court did NOT award liability against the woman who rendered assistance-- rather, they said she must stand trial to see whether she acted recklessly or negligently in pulling the victim out; and, (2.) this Court was extremely split, meaning the judgment basically upheld the current law instead of "writing new law". In regard to (1.), there will be a trial now to see whether or not the woman was reckless or negligent in pulling the victim out-- that is an inquiry that looks at all the facts and circumstances of the situation, and would likely be adjudged by a jury of their peers. That means the victim will have to prove that the rescuer's duty to act reasonably under the situation was breached-- costing the victim the use of some appendages-- yet saving her life-- and have to convince a jury that THE RESCUER caused the damages, and, in essence, the situation that led to the damages. Does that seem likely? Seems to me the other driver may play a role in that situation, however, my guess is that other driver is underinsured and they've already gone that route and are seeking to cash in elsewhere...but I digress...

In regard to (2.) this is an affirmation that this area of law is gray and, on one hand we require a duty to help, but on the other hand we give them up if they act unreasonably. If there is any consolation, I think it would be very difficult to prove to a jury that someone acted unreasonably in an emergency situation outside of the clearly black and white situations as described above-- e.g. the 35W bumper-tap above.

I actually think this is a good area of law since it essentially requires us to act "reasonably". Often times in American law we have a minimum standard of conduct that is not punishable, but such minimum standard is less than "reasonable". I think that's where people get annoyed and disheartened with the law. While this California court sounds bad right now, remember that she isn't liable yet and the victim has about 10 more hurdles to go before they can sniff any sense of liability on the rescuer. Finally, evidence that the victim was paralyzed before the rescuer got there would sink that case right now. Period. And I am sure there exists some evidence that that could be the case.

I have sympathy for the rescuer for her legal bills, however...
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby dxmnkd316 » Tue 12/23/08 12:23 pm

SkiUMahLaw wrote:
gator wrote:
Zwak wrote:Woman pulls friend from car wreck. California Supreme Court rules that victim can sue friend since her actions rendered her a paraplegic.


Serious? Another case of "dumbing down of America".



Sorry for the delay in my response....

First off, like Texas, Minnesota's "Good Samaritan" law requiresyou to give assistance to an individual in need.
Minn. Stat. 604A.01 Subd. 1 (2008): A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person.
It is a petty misdemeanor for failing to give assistance-- but that is a criminal penalty-- and does not limit civil penalties from a victim.

Subdivision 2 of the same statute, however, gives a general immunity for any acts or omissions for members of the general public who are "Good Samaritans". (note: does not include EMTs or those working for compensation)
A person who, without compensation or the expectation of compensation, renders emergency care, advice, or assistance at the scene of an emergency or during transit to a location where professional medical care can be rendered, is not liable for any civil damages as a result of acts or omissions by that person in rendering the emergency care, advice, or assistance...


HOWEVER, the statute goes on that if the Good Samaritan "acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care, advice, or assistance", they lose that general immunity.

What does that mean? It means we could all potentially be liable if we don't act reasonably in providing emergency services.

That shouldn't be a threat-- really, it is just common sense. We don't want to reward the guy who screams "FIRE" in a crowded theater just because someone lit a match-- rather, there is a common-sense duty to take remedial actions commensurate with the harm that is presented. If you're on 35W and the car in front of you lightly hits the bumper of the car in front of them, you jumping out of your car, breaking their window and pulling the driver out into oncoming traffic which breaks their leg is likely not an appropriate response. But if that car in front of them is a Pinto (which have a history of blowing up on such bumper-taps) and there is a fire in that car, that action is probably appropriate. I realize this is an extremely gray area-- I think all courts and legislatures do-- but there still needs to be protection against the outlier/rogue rescuer who negligently or recklessly makes matters worse by their participation.

In regard the California case, a few notes: (1.) This Court did NOT award liability against the woman who rendered assistance-- rather, they said she must stand trial to see whether she acted recklessly or negligently in pulling the victim out; and, (2.) this Court was extremely split, meaning the judgment basically upheld the current law instead of "writing new law". In regard to (1.), there will be a trial now to see whether or not the woman was reckless or negligent in pulling the victim out-- that is an inquiry that looks at all the facts and circumstances of the situation, and would likely be adjudged by a jury of their peers. That means the victim will have to prove that the rescuer's duty to act reasonably under the situation was breached-- costing the victim the use of some appendages-- yet saving her life-- and have to convince a jury that THE RESCUER caused the damages, and, in essence, the situation that led to the damages. Does that seem likely? Seems to me the other driver may play a role in that situation, however, my guess is that other driver is underinsured and they've already gone that route and are seeking to cash in elsewhere...but I digress...

In regard to (2.) this is an affirmation that this area of law is gray and, on one hand we require a duty to help, but on the other hand we give them up if they act unreasonably. If there is any consolation, I think it would be very difficult to prove to a jury that someone acted unreasonably in an emergency situation outside of the clearly black and white situations as described above-- e.g. the 35W bumper-tap above.

I actually think this is a good area of law since it essentially requires us to act "reasonably". Often times in American law we have a minimum standard of conduct that is not punishable, but such minimum standard is less than "reasonable". I think that's where people get annoyed and disheartened with the law. While this California court sounds bad right now, remember that she isn't liable yet and the victim has about 10 more hurdles to go before they can sniff any sense of liability on the rescuer. Finally, evidence that the victim was paralyzed before the rescuer got there would sink that case right now. Period. And I am sure there exists some evidence that that could be the case.

I have sympathy for the rescuer for her legal bills, however...


Now I remember why Roman law was so appealing in the time of Caesars. All cases were decided by a :thumbdown: or :thumbup:
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby SouthTexGopher » Tue 12/23/08 12:47 pm

SkiUMahLaw wrote:
Subdivision 2 of the same statute, however, gives a general immunity for any acts or omissions for members of the general public who are "Good Samaritans". (note: does not include EMTs or those working for compensation)

...

HOWEVER, the statute goes on that if the Good Samaritan "acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care, advice, or assistance", they lose that general immunity.



Then the laws in Minnesota and Texas are nearly identical...you're required to render what aid you can, you're not going to be liable for what you do as long as you're not reckless in doing it...but that immunity is gone if you're a pro and should know what you're doing.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby dxmnkd316 » Tue 12/23/08 1:00 pm

I guess I'm also not comfortable with the requirement to render aid. I'm not necessarily going to run over to someone who is bleeding and try and stop the blood without proper protective equipment. In the 1 in 100 (some estimates vary) chance that person has some sort of blood-borne disease... I know the law makes provisions for personal safety, but that is a gray area that I don't even want to get into.

Is that selfish of me? Probably, and I'm sure I'm in the minority here. But to be honest, I don't think it's unreasonable considering the costs.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby SkiUMahLaw » Tue 12/23/08 1:19 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:I guess I'm also not comfortable with the requirement to render aid. I'm not necessarily going to run over to someone who is bleeding and try and stop the blood without proper protective equipment. In the 1 in 100 (some estimates vary) chance that person has some sort of blood-borne disease... I know the law makes provisions for personal safety, but that is a gray area that I don't even want to get into.

Is that selfish of me? Probably, and I'm sure I'm in the minority here. But to be honest, I don't think it's unreasonable considering the costs.


The law certainly would not require to put yourself in harm's way because of a duty to assist. However, you would have a duty to call for police/medical help if you come across a person in grave danger, even if you don't get down and try to provide medical attention.

In my conversation with cops, they actually suggest not necessarily getting out of your car if you see an accident-- rather, call police/medical personnel and let them deal with it. The cops recognize that good samaritans could be put in harms way by being naive and too kind-hearted, as there are morons out there who prey on such kindness.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby dxmnkd316 » Tue 12/23/08 1:56 pm

SkiUMahLaw wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:I guess I'm also not comfortable with the requirement to render aid. I'm not necessarily going to run over to someone who is bleeding and try and stop the blood without proper protective equipment. In the 1 in 100 (some estimates vary) chance that person has some sort of blood-borne disease... I know the law makes provisions for personal safety, but that is a gray area that I don't even want to get into.

Is that selfish of me? Probably, and I'm sure I'm in the minority here. But to be honest, I don't think it's unreasonable considering the costs.


The law certainly would not require to put yourself in harm's way because of a duty to assist. However, you would have a duty to call for police/medical help if you come across a person in grave danger, even if you don't get down and try to provide medical attention.


In my conversation with cops, they actually suggest not necessarily getting out of your car if you see an accident-- rather, call police/medical personnel and let them deal with it. The cops recognize that good samaritans could be put in harms way by being naive and too kind-hearted, as there are morons out there who prey on such kindness.


Of course. If I saw something I would be on my cell phone right away. I'm not a completely heartless :censored: hole, just a somewhat heartless :censored: hole.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby Dances With Gophers » Tue 12/23/08 2:15 pm

SkiUMahLaw wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:I guess I'm also not comfortable with the requirement to render aid. I'm not necessarily going to run over to someone who is bleeding and try and stop the blood without proper protective equipment. In the 1 in 100 (some estimates vary) chance that person has some sort of blood-borne disease... I know the law makes provisions for personal safety, but that is a gray area that I don't even want to get into.

Is that selfish of me? Probably, and I'm sure I'm in the minority here. But to be honest, I don't think it's unreasonable considering the costs.


The law certainly would not require to put yourself in harm's way because of a duty to assist. However, you would have a duty to call for police/medical help if you come across a person in grave danger, even if you don't get down and try to provide medical attention.

:confused2: I swear I remember Barry Feld saying the polar opposite was the case...
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby SkiUMahLaw » Tue 12/23/08 2:47 pm

Dances With Gophers wrote: :confused2: I swear I remember Barry Feld saying the polar opposite was the case...


Minn. Stat. 604A.01 Subd. 1 (2008):
Subdivision 1.Duty to assist.

A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person. Reasonable assistance may include obtaining or attempting to obtain aid from law enforcement or medical personnel.


Barry Feld is a riot. I had both Torts and Criminal Procedure with him. He (and his personal stories and interjections) made every class interesting....
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby SouthTexGopher » Tue 12/23/08 3:08 pm

You never want to put yourself at risk in these sorts of situations. I've both stopped and rendered aid and just called on my cell phone. If I can safely assist, I will...but if I can't - then it's just the cell phone for me.

A few years ago a friend of mine and I were at work very late for a project...and standing outside drinking a cup of coffee and getting some air. There is an elevated freeway by the building I was working in at the time...and a sharp curve. We heard a loud crash and then the sound of a car limping away. We ran up the embankment and found a woman trapped in her car in the center lane (it's a three-lane road). The other car had done a hit and run. We tried getting her out - it wasn't safe to be in a stopped vehicle there - but we couldn't. We'd both left our cells in the building, so we couldn't call for help...meanwhile cars are buzzing by at 70mph and honking (!) at us. Thankfully a cabbie pulled up, saw us, called his dispatch to get the EMS on the way and then backed up about 50 feet and put his four-ways on. Once the cops got there, they thanked us and told us to get off the road. As we walked back to the office, all we were thinking was, "that was pretty danged stupid."

Just a couple weeks ago, I found myself in a situation like that again. A Camry lost control on 1604, went across the freeway twice (back and forth), hit something and flipped several times. I broke out the cell phone and called 911...the EMS folks were there in minutes.

The lesson is...render help, but don't attempt suicide in the process.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby Zwak » Tue 12/23/08 5:49 pm

SouthTexGopher wrote:
SkiUMahLaw wrote:
Subdivision 2 of the same statute, however, gives a general immunity for any acts or omissions for members of the general public who are "Good Samaritans". (note: does not include EMTs or those working for compensation)

...

HOWEVER, the statute goes on that if the Good Samaritan "acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care, advice, or assistance", they lose that general immunity.



Then the laws in Minnesota and Texas are nearly identical...you're required to render what aid you can, you're not going to be liable for what you do as long as you're not reckless in doing it...but that immunity is gone if you're a pro and should know what you're doing.


Great insights as always SUML.

I think was unfortunate about the entire situation though is that the average citizen is going to hear "Good Samaritan" and "law suit" and be afraid to help out.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby SouthTexGopher » Mon 12/29/08 7:30 am

Your tax dollars (soon) to be at work...

Link

More than half of the request for Minnesota cities -- some $413 million -- is slated for projects in Duluth...that would direct just $208 million for Minnesota roads and bridges...including $5 million to paint Duluth's iconic Aerial Lift Bridge. Also tucked in are $2 million for a lake-walk extension at Beacon Point and $6 million for snowmaking and maintenance facilities at Spirit Mountain.


:roll: I could paint that bridge for $4,999,999.99 - and I'd donate back the savings.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby panndder » Mon 12/29/08 9:31 am

I have to imagine painting (and the extensive prep work that goes into it) a massive, elevated, exterior structure that is exposed to the elements and high winds is just like changing the color of your spare bedroom. Spirit Mountain is (best I know) a private entity, but it's still an important part of the local economy. I live in the Cities, but I understand the importance of tourism for Duluth and the area. Having the most iconic destination in the city become dilapidated or not having the local ski resort fully opened until January is bad news for many businesses in the area. There's overhead for these things, sure, but it is no secret that our Government can be, well, inefficient.

That being said, the fact that the Federal Government thinks it can create all these programs and spend money in ways not granted to it by the Constitution angers me to no end. :evil:
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby dxmnkd316 » Mon 12/29/08 2:09 pm

Whoa... this is not good. HP caught selling printers via 3rd party in Iran...

link
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby Zwak » Mon 12/29/08 3:56 pm

Man shoots another man for talking during a movie.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/27/mov ... index.html

Not that I would ever act on it but there have been times when I've seen a movie and the thought has crossed my mind. :wink:
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby dxmnkd316 » Tue 12/30/08 12:41 pm

Andrew Lloyd Webber is nearly done with his SEQUEL to Phantom of the Opera

Link

He must be really strapped for cash...
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby Slap Shot » Tue 12/30/08 1:05 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:Andrew Lloyd Webber is nearly done with his SEQUEL to Phantom of the Opera

Link

He must be really strapped for cash...


He should make all the characters cats and he could do a twofer sequel. That would be money!
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby dxmnkd316 » Tue 12/30/08 1:10 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:Andrew Lloyd Webber is nearly done with his SEQUEL to Phantom of the Opera

Link

He must be really strapped for cash...


He should make all the characters cats and he could do a twofer sequel. That would be money!


That, and I think he should take notes from Family Guy when they did Peter's rendition of "The King and I"
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby thinkbui » Wed 12/31/08 2:48 am

dxmnkd316 wrote:Whoa... this is not good. HP caught selling printers via 3rd party in Iran...

link


I'm not too surprised by this. Their printer division is their only real money-maker.
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby streakygopher » Wed 12/31/08 11:05 am

thinkbui wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:Whoa... this is not good. HP caught selling printers via 3rd party in Iran...

link


I'm not too surprised by this. Their printer division is their only real money-maker.



Shouldn't that be their printer INK division?
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Re: Headline News 2008

Postby thinkbui » Wed 12/31/08 12:42 pm

streakygopher wrote:
thinkbui wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:Whoa... this is not good. HP caught selling printers via 3rd party in Iran...

link


I'm not too surprised by this. Their printer division is their only real money-maker.



Shouldn't that be their printer INK division?


Indeed, though I was assuming their printer supplies and accessories were part of the overall printer division.
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