Twins 2012 season

[sunbone]

Wait, I was told Cuddyer was over rated and Willingham was the answer? I'm getting confused now. I admit my whole theory on the offense being better is predicated on Mauer having a typical Mauer type year and Morneau coming back and being healthy. Which I didn't think was at all likely until the Twins finally figured out what any reasonable person knew a year ago and moved him to DH. And if you are talking about last year to this year, you really aren't replacing Kubel and Delmon as much as you are Tosoni and Dinkelman.

[ScoobyDoo]

Squeeze Bunt by the Angels works.

[Bushwood Gopher]

Wait, I was told Cuddyer was over rated and Willingham was the answer? I'm getting confused now. I admit my whole theory on the offense being better is predicated on Mauer having a typical Mauer type year and Morneau coming back and being healthy. Which I didn't think was at all likely until the Twins finally figured out what any reasonable person knew a year ago and moved him to DH. And if you are talking about last year to this year, you really aren't replacing Kubel and Delmon as much as you are Tosoni and Dinkelman.

No, you were told Cuddyer wasn't worth $10M.

Josh Willingham will be far better value at $7M than the Magic Man was at $10M.

[team22tank]

The Twins suck.

[Slap Shot]

I think the Wild could outscore the Twins.

[gopher6]

outscored 20-6 first 5 games

[Dolphin275]

outscored 20-6 first 5 games

There Pacing themselves...

[bearpaw28]

0-4 and counting...shaping up to be a long season for the Twins...if this keeps up will Gardy be gone by 4th of July?

[JWG]

0-4 and counting...shaping up to be a long season for the Twins...if this keeps up will Gardy be gone by 4th of July?

What talent was he given to be better? Did we improve a single position?

[ScoobyDoo]

I think we're back to mid to late 90's. Hopefully it's a shorter reboot this time.

[Beauner]

0-4 and counting...shaping up to be a long season for the Twins...if this keeps up will Gardy be gone by 4th of July?

No. Gardy can do no wrong for the Twins. He's 1 one playoff series in 10 years but people treat him like he is baseball's Herb Brooks.

[bearpaw28]

I think we're back to mid to late 90's. Hopefully it's a shorter reboot this time.

I don't think the Twin can get away with late 90's baseball with this fan base after getting a new Ballpark...think the natives are already restless after 4 games. This team looks anemic at best at the plate..only guy who can hit is Willingham. Just pathetic...I mean twolves with Kurt Rambis coaching pathetic.

Eating very good (but very expensive) Ballpark food and being outside is great...but it will get old and affect the gate if this continues. Sad when only teams you can beat are from your division.

[HockeyBum]

I think we're back to mid to late 90's. Hopefully it's a shorter reboot this time.

I don't think the Twin can get away with late 90's baseball with this fan base after getting a new Ballpark...think the natives are already restless after 4 games.

I wouldn't be so sure. The minor league cupboard is pretty much bare. That leaves free agency. We all know the Twins don't play that game (not to mention they're saddled with Mauer's boat anchor contract for the next 6 years). The extra money Target Field generates will be going straight into Joe Mauer's bank account instead of improving the team.

[Greyeagle]

Where do you set the over-under for wins? 62?

[JWG]

Where do you set the over-under for wins? 62?

61.5. It's will they lose 100 this year?

[ScoobyDoo]

Where do you set the over-under for wins? 62?

I'm setting it at 50 right now. Last years team was better and they lost 99.

1962 New York Mets, 40–120 (.250), and 2003 Detroit Tigers, 43–119 (.265)

Cleveland Spiders were 20-134.

Maybe they can shatter the futility record?

[rowshkex]

0-4 and counting...shaping up to be a long season for the Twins...if this keeps up will Gardy be gone by 4th of July?

What talent was he given to be better? Did we improve a single position?

Maybe a good manager would demand some help from management, rather than try to excuse away the issues... Perhaps.

I've never been a huge fan of Gardenhire. He just seems to emphasize the wrong things (i.e. the value of a closer--things like that).

I don't claim to know a ton about baseball, but Gardenhire just reminds me of a glorified Lemaire.

[trixR4kids]

I have to say that I was only able to watch about and inning and a half of the Twins this weekend before I start. Thankfully I didn't miss anything. How long does this go on before Gardy starts feeling his butt getting a little warm? Obviously it is VERY early, but if they have a terrible skid to start the year....yeah.......

What do you realistically expect Gardy to do? Teach Nick Blackburn how to strike people out and stop walking people? Teach Liriano to be more consistent and not walk people/get hurt?

I mean I don't really care either way, I'm not a huge Twins fan but I really fail to see what Gardy should be doing with the lack of talent he has. I realize the offense isn't very potent and maybe he could try to manufacture runs or something but that usually requires some speed on the base paths. And when you're pitching is terrible you can't really rely on bunting and giving the other team free outs.

[IDGopher]

Gardy's a "glorified Lemaire"?

Yeah, he's had similar post-season success to Lemaire.

[Beauner]

I think we're back to mid to late 90's. Hopefully it's a shorter reboot this time.

I don't think the Twin can get away with late 90's baseball with this fan base after getting a new Ballpark...think the natives are already restless after 4 games.

I wouldn't be so sure. The minor league cupboard is pretty much bare. That leaves free agency. We all know the Twins don't play that game (not to mention they're saddled with Mauer's boat anchor contract for the next 6 years). The extra money Target Field generates will be going straight into Joe Mauer's bank account instead of improving the team.

There was an article in the Pioneer Press today basically saying that the Twins will open the purse strings for a free agent if/when the team feels like one player can make a big difference. Their payroll right now is 3 million dollars less than it was in 2010. It's 19 million less than last year. No player/players would turn this team into a playoff team for 19 million dollars.
The Mauer contract kills the team because we won't spend more than 110 million and he's taking up about 20% of that for a player that doesn't drive in 100, doesn't score 100, and doesn't hit HRs. The team needs to bump that payroll number up to 140-150 to have quality players surrounding him. Otherwise we're just a 100 million dollar suckfest with guys like Carroll, Casilla, and Valencia playing infield for us.

[Slap Shot]

Another 19mm this year may not have got them to the WS, but if spent right would surely make them more likely to compete for the division.

[trixR4kids]

You need to develop talent through the minor league system. Sure increasing the payroll wouldn't hurt but the free agency route in general is a crappy way to go unless you're the yanks, red sox, phillies, Texas etc. because it's just not a feasible route to go. If you get a guy like CJ Wilson you still 2-3 more pitchers given how bad the rotation is. Say you get Jose Reyes, that's 17 million a year and you still have no pitching. There's way too many holes on this team to fill through free agency. The Twins realistically need a 1st pitcher, another decent pitcher or two for the middle of the rotation, and a few more positional players (2B, SS, 3B) and some bullpen help. Not sure even a team with deep pockets like the Yankees could fix all of those problems at once through free agency.

What you need is actual player development at the minor league level, especially with pitching.

[ex_goldy]

The Twins suck.

So they shed a bunch of payroll (cuddyer, Kubel, Nathan), lost 99 games last year and expected what this year?

I'm not much of a baseball fan, but Mauer is sure getting a pass from the home crowd for what he's paid.
But hey, it's only 4 games into the season, just a continuation of last season.

Is Gardenhier likely to get booted? What do you do to shake up a team ?

[Ben]

There wasn't much out there in the positions of need for the Twins. While it looks like they overspent for Carroll pretty badly, what else could have been done SS? Hell, the Pirates paid more for Clint Barmes. Willingham looks like he was a great deal in the OF, but if he's playing in a OF with Span and Doumit that's the stuff of nightmares not seen since Chad Allen roamed the astroturf. And I don't even know where to begin with the pitching mess other than being thankful that we flush Pavano's $8.5m off the books after this year and can try again somewhere else. This organization is real thin at the higher levels (AAA & MLB) in a lot of places because of a lot of bad trades and drafts. Hopefully they can shuffle some deck chairs on the Twintanic this year to get some pieces in place for 3-4 years down the road when some of the kids are getting ready to show up, like Rosario, Micheal, and Sano.

[Five-HoleFrenzy]

It's a shame Mauer doesn't play in New York or Boston or Philadelphia. Maybe then he would get the treatment he deserves for the absolute embarrassment he is to the contract he was given.

[trixR4kids]

There wasn't much out there in the positions of need for the Twins. While it looks like they overspent for Carroll pretty badly, what else could have been done SS?

This is what I was getting at. For a premium position like SS, even for a mediocre one like Carroll you still pay a decent amount.

[gopherguy13]

I hope Gardy can already feel that seat getting warm...

[Dances With Gophers]

It's a shame Mauer doesn't play in New York or Boston or Philadelphia. Maybe then he would get the treatment he deserves for the absolute embarrassment he is to the contract he was given.

I don't blame Mauer for signing the contract. I blame the Twins office for offering it.
The next Joe Mauer type that comes along in 10-15 years will not be signed to a mega-deal by the Twins because of this...and he'll sign instead with the Cubs, and then shortly thereafter will lead the Cubbies to a World Series. Bank on it. It's our lot in life.

[Slap Shot]

What you need is actual player development at the minor league level, especially with pitching.

Of course, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have added a piece or two more from FA without breaking the future bank.

[Lars Sauve]

They need my man Willie Gallachan. Gallachan is a like a poor man's version of John Henry. Actually, he's literally very poor. He needs this job. I can't support this guy on my zero dollars per year salary. My reward is the satisfaction that comes from finding the right cave or closing in on another answer. There's also the health benefits from all the time in the woods.

Back to Willie - he's big like John and swings a pretty large hammer. He'll probably miss 99 out of 100 pitches, but the one he hits will be gone, assuming it's hit in fair territory.

[ex_goldy]

It's a shame Mauer doesn't play in New York or Boston or Philadelphia. Maybe then he would get the treatment he deserves for the absolute embarrassment he is to the contract he was given.

I don't blame Mauer for signing the contract. I blame the Twins office for offering it.
The next Joe Mauer type that comes along in 10-15 years will not be signed to a mega-deal by the Twins because of this...and he'll sign instead with the Cubs, and then shortly thereafter will lead the Cubbies to a World Series. Bank on it. It's our lot in life.

Those wacky Pohlads. First Carl wants to contract the team, now his son is spilling cash on a few select players. The other pro teams in this town have their strange moments but I'm really amazed at the bizarre saga of the Pohlads and the Twins.

[Ben]

One important question: Do the 1988 Orioles have the champagne ready?

[Six Hole]

Crazy question: When is the next time the Twins will be favored in a game? Maybe at home against the Royals at the end of April?

Next five opposing pitchers: Weaver, Haren, Harrison, Darvish, Feliz. Won't be favored against Weaver or Haren, and despite what the three Rangers pitchers have shown, I doubt the Twins pitchers will be favored against the Rangers offense.

Then, to the Bronx for four games. We all know what happens there.

Next, at Tampa for three games. Whichever Tampa starter faces the Twins, he'll likely be favored. Only the Rays' bullpen might affect the gambling line here. Still, I don't see the Twins being favored.

After that, three at home versus the Red Sox. Of all the next five series (including the current one), this is the Twins best chance to actually win one. But I'm not sure the Twins will be favored in any game.

Finally, the Royals arrive. The Twins may be favored, but it doesn't mean they can beat the likes of Bruce Chen or Luke Hochevar.

Exciting times.

[dave122793]

Where do you set the over-under for wins? 62?

I'm setting it at 50 right now. Last years team was better and they lost 99.

1962 New York Mets, 40–120 (.250), and 2003 Detroit Tigers, 43–119 (.265)

Cleveland Spiders were 20-134.

Maybe they can shatter the futility record?

I think 50 is about right. The Mets record isn't out of reach either,especially since the AL is loaded this year. As for Gardy,I don't know how long he can last,right or wrong. Despite his pathetic playoff record,the guy can manage,but plenty of good managers have been fired before. What if they start 5-25,7-35,etc.? Or worse? The early schedule is brutal so it doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to foresee that type of record over the 1st 30-40 games. Is Gardy the type of manager that can oversee a long rebuilding project? It's questionable.

[Bash Brother]

33 is a very good win goal for them to aim for.

Junior Year my high school team could have won 50.

[Bushwood Gopher]

There wasn't much out there in the positions of need for the Twins. While it looks like they overspent for Carroll pretty badly, what else could have been done SS? Hell, the Pirates paid more for Clint Barmes. Willingham looks like he was a great deal in the OF, but if he's playing in a OF with Span and Doumit that's the stuff of nightmares not seen since Chad Allen roamed the astroturf. And I don't even know where to begin with the pitching mess other than being thankful that we flush Pavano's $8.5m off the books after this year and can try again somewhere else. This organization is real thin at the higher levels (AAA & MLB) in a lot of places because of a lot of bad trades and drafts. Hopefully they can shuffle some deck chairs on the Twintanic this year to get some pieces in place for 3-4 years down the road when some of the kids are getting ready to show up, like Rosario, Micheal, and Sano.

I agree with pretty much everything you said Ben, but I also think their problems are systemic according to their organizational philosophies and unfortunately go way beyond a couple bad trades or drafts. Offensively, they are sticking to their belief in small ball without having the speed or high OBP guys it takes to play that way. Power is anathema to them. When they do develop it or acquire it they do whatever they can to inflate batting avg (by teaching opposite field hitting for everyone in the order 1 through 9) which I believe stunts some of the power of their 3 through 7 guys. Their approach to plate discipline is very strict. We stress working counts deep, "waiting for the right pitch" and moving guys over. Not saying that these are never viable methods because they certainly are given the right situations, but overall in my view this universal approach all too often creates a defensive hitting mentality. Kirby Puckett was one of the best natural hitters the Twins have ever had and he got up there looking to hack. Even a lot on the first pitch which, it turns out, is often the best one you're going to get to hit. Would his free swinging approach to hitting have been stunted with Gardenhire & Vavra having influence over it? And wouldn't that then have compromised his ability as a hitter? I think it's fair to say 'yes it would have' to both hypothetical questions.

On the pitching side, I will simply posit that pitching to contact is a Little League philosophy and should have minimal application at the major league level.

Before any of the "yeah well we've won six division titles" rebuttals, that's great but they've won one, ONE, playoff series the last ten years. Even by blind luck or by accident they should have been able to do better than that. So I think it's fair to question the philosophies. They put up those divisional crowns by getting to play some 60 games a year against a few very weak teams who were very weak for a very long time. And they aren't so weak anymore. I think we really need to rethink some of our core philosophies of the game, and if that means getting some different guys in here to instill them then so be it. It's clearly a power hitting/power pitching league. When was the last time we were either?

[Six Hole]

+1, Bushwood.

The Twins' drafting and organizational structure is and has been seriously flawed for some time. The organization is far too rigid in its developmental tactics to produce players of consistent major league value, either at the plate or on the mound, as reasoned by Bushwood.

Furthermore, no other organization ever desires Twins players because they have been ruined to fit only the organizational expectations of this team. Teams are better off waiting for the Twins to sell low on decent players who ultimately clash with the Twins' organizational philosophy. I offer Lohse, Hardy, Slowey, Garza, Ortiz, Delmon, Kubel (probably, although it's arguable) and [maybe] Garret Jones as easy examples. Liriano will undoubtedly be next.

I still don't know how to balance what this organization does well and what it does poorly. Everything that was done to build a decent team through the 2000s no longer works.

(Final beef that I've mentioned repeatedly: The Twins' medical staff is the worst in professional sports. That doesn't help.)

[h8red]

(Final beef that I've mentioned repeatedly: The Twins' medical staff is the worst in professional sports. That doesn't help.)[/quote]

In my professional medical opinion I must agree with you 100%.

[Alby22]

Bushwood and Six hit it right on the head. I think most of the fan base has been conditioned to accept the way the Twins do business. The sooner the organization realizes there's more and better ways to win other than "the twins way" the better off they will be.

[sunbone]

Well, this has to be the record for the quickest back flip off the bandwagon in history. I find it hilarious that the Twins had one bad season, then 4 bad games and suddenly every philosophy they have is complete bunk. The same philosophies they have had going all the way back to everybody's hero TK by the way. This thread is going to have some serious comedic value this season I can see.

[greydogg]

Well, this has to be the record for the quickest back flip off the bandwagon in history. I find it hilarious that the Twins had one bad season, then 4 bad games and suddenly every philosophy they have is complete bunk. The same philosophies they have had going all the way back to everybody's hero TK by the way. This thread is going to have some serious comedic value this season I can see.

[Neely]

I've never really had an opinion on Gardenhire but listening to him on the news the last couple days has been awful. Not sure why all of a sudden it's bothering me but I actually changed the channel this morning when he came on as I couldn't take one more second of his meaningless drivel. At least he didn't come out in support of Castro.

[h8red]

Well, this has to be the record for the quickest back flip off the bandwagon in history. I find it hilarious that the Twins had one bad season, then 4 bad games and suddenly every philosophy they have is complete bunk. The same philosophies they have had going all the way back to everybody's hero TK by the way. This thread is going to have some serious comedic value this season I can see.

I prefer a triple lindy off the band wagon. With enough practice every football, hockey, basketball, and baseball season, year after year, I almost have it mastered.

[Beauner]

Well, this has to be the record for the quickest back flip off the bandwagon in history. I find it hilarious that the Twins had one bad season, then 4 bad games and suddenly every philosophy they have is complete bunk. The same philosophies they have had going all the way back to everybody's hero TK by the way. This thread is going to have some serious comedic value this season I can see.

Philosophies used by TK that won the World Series in late 80s and early 90s.
Anybody who doesn't see a huge difference in the way the game is played now compared to how it was played then is blind.
All it takes is a look at what happens when the Twins go against teams that have the current philosophy: Power pitching OR power hitting (I would argue the Rays last year didn't have a ton of power hitting (172 HRs last year) but their pitching was/is phenomenal and their offense was good enough).

It's one thing if you want to be a pitching and defense style team and have arms like David Price, James Shields, etc. you're going to win in the playoffs. The Twins wanted/want to be a pitching and defense style team that plays small ball with players that aren't built to play small ball (Parmelee, coming into the draft, was a power-hitting 1B. So was Morneau. Cuddyer and Kubel had power potential. So did Delmon. Miguel Sano has power potential, etc. etc. etc.) and the team tried to force those guys into the "Twins Way" rather than adapting to the strengths of their players/prospects. That's just plain dumb.
To put it in a different way: If the Vikings had the 5 best run-blocking offensive linemen in the league and Adrian Peterson at RB but forced them to adapt to a pass-happy offense rather than work with the the skills they have in their system, people would be furious. This is akin to what the Twins tried to do in their minor league systems. In the early 2000s, we saw a lack of power in the organization so we drafted to address that lack of power. Then we forced those guys into the "Twins way" rather than change our philosophy to fit their players.

[Bushwood Gopher]

Well, this has to be the record for the quickest back flip off the bandwagon in history. I find it hilarious that the Twins had one bad season, then 4 bad games and suddenly every philosophy they have is complete bunk. The same philosophies they have had going all the way back to everybody's hero TK by the way. This thread is going to have some serious comedic value this season I can see.

Philosophies used by TK that won the World Series in late 80s and early 90s.
Anybody who doesn't see a huge difference in the way the game is played now compared to how it was played then is blind.
All it takes is a look at what happens when the Twins go against teams that have the current philosophy: Power pitching OR power hitting (I would argue the Rays last year didn't have a ton of power hitting (172 HRs last year) but their pitching was/is phenomenal and their offense was good enough).

It's one thing if you want to be a pitching and defense style team and have arms like David Price, James Shields, etc. you're going to win in the playoffs. The Twins wanted/want to be a pitching and defense style team that plays small ball with players that aren't built to play small ball (Parmelee, coming into the draft, was a power-hitting 1B. So was Morneau. Cuddyer and Kubel had power potential. So did Delmon. Miguel Sano has power potential, etc. etc. etc.) and the team tried to force those guys into the "Twins Way" rather than adapting to the strengths of their players/prospects. That's just plain dumb.
To put it in a different way: If the Vikings had the 5 best run-blocking offensive linemen in the league and Adrian Peterson at RB but forced them to adapt to a pass-happy offense rather than work with the the skills they have in their system, people would be furious. This is akin to what the Twins tried to do in their minor league systems. In the early 2000s, we saw a lack of power in the organization so we drafted to address that lack of power. Then we forced those guys into the "Twins way" rather than change our philosophy to fit their players.

Bingo.

This has nothing to do with 4 games and everything to do with the last decade.

[ScoobyDoo]

To put it in a different way: If the Vikings had the 5 best run-blocking offensive linemen in the league and Adrian Peterson at RB but forced them to adapt to a pass-happy offense rather than work with the the skills they have in their system, people would be furious.

Uh, sorry to break it to you but that's exactly what Chili did when he got here. The team wasn't built with players that can run the West Coast but that's exactly what Chili did.

As for the Twins, the small ball thing worked until the pitching got so bad it didn't work anymore. Now they have nothing.

[ex_goldy]

Well, this has to be the record for the quickest back flip off the bandwagon in history. I find it hilarious that the Twins had one bad season, then 4 bad games and suddenly every philosophy they have is complete bunk. The same philosophies they have had going all the way back to everybody's hero TK by the way. This thread is going to have some serious comedic value this season I can see.

I was interested in them until their first round playoff vs Yankees and the went 0-4 their last playoff appearance. It was so pathetic. Team has sucked ever since. They looked like scared little fawns.

[streakygopher]

Well, this has to be the record for the quickest back flip off the bandwagon in history. I find it hilarious that the Twins had one bad season, then 4 bad games and suddenly every philosophy they have is complete bunk. The same philosophies they have had going all the way back to everybody's hero TK by the way. This thread is going to have some serious comedic value this season I can see.

I was interested in them until their first round playoff vs Yankees and the went 0-4 their last playoff appearance. It was so pathetic. Team has sucked ever since. They looked like scared little fawns.

For those who measure success by post season wins and a shot at the World Series, this team has been a decade-long disappointment. For those who appreciate the comedy of mismanagement and not getting a sniff at the post season - despite a sizable payroll with marquis names - hold on to the wheel. It's gonna be a fun ride.

Honestly, as a fan I feel like the guy in the bowels of the Titanic furiously shoveling coal while the men in the white suits are steering the ship toward its historical fate.

[Beauner]

To put it in a different way: If the Vikings had the 5 best run-blocking offensive linemen in the league and Adrian Peterson at RB but forced them to adapt to a pass-happy offense rather than work with the the skills they have in their system, people would be furious.

Uh, sorry to break it to you but that's exactly what Chili did when he got here. The team wasn't built with players that can run the West Coast but that's exactly what Chili did.

As for the Twins, the small ball thing worked until the pitching got so bad it didn't work anymore. Now they have nothing.

1) You're not breaking any news. There's a reason fans hated Childress, there's a reason the only season he had success was when Favre took over the offense, and there's a reason he got fired.
2) Childress featured Adrian Peterson quite heavily in that offense. In 2007 (Peterson's rookie year) he was 14th in the league in total carries and Chester Taylor was 30th. In 2008, AP led the league in carries. In 2009 he was 4th. In 2010 (Chilly's last year) he was 9th but missed a game, where if he had hit his average carries/game would have jumped up to 6th. I can't believe I'm defending Brad Childress. He still featured AP quite a bit in his failed West Coast offense. I'm talking a run-and-gun style offense like Texas Tech ran under Mike Leach with 65 passes/game.

[sunbone]

The Twins problem isn't some systemic philosophy, as cute and popular as that theory seems to be among the "experts." It is pretty simple. Because of some poor drafting, injuries, etc. the farm system has lagged the last few years and if you aren't spending like the Angels, Yankees, etc. that will kill you. They for sure need to have some accountability in the scouting department for that. They just whiffed on too many picks. And the Mauer and Morneau contracts have killed any flexibility they may have had. I would still like to hear what the resident brain trust here would have done differently back then to avoid this. Those are the reasons this team is where it is at, not because Gardy coddles players, the team fines players for home runs or strikeouts, or whatever your pet theories are this week.

[ScoobyDoo]

Besides hitting in the draft there's nothing they could have done. Mauer and Morneau had to live up to the hype and their respective contracts and they didn't.

It's a perfect storm.

[Bushwood Gopher]

The Twins problem isn't some systemic philosophy, as cute and popular as that theory seems to be among the "experts." It is pretty simple. Because of some poor drafting, injuries, etc. the farm system has lagged the last few years and if you aren't spending like the Angels, Yankees, etc. that will kill you. They for sure need to have some accountability in the scouting department for that. They just whiffed on too many picks. And the Mauer and Morneau contracts have killed any flexibility they may have had. I would still like to hear what the resident brain trust here would have done differently back then to avoid this. Those are the reasons this team is where it is at, not because Gardy coddles players, the team fines players for home runs or strikeouts, or whatever your pet theories are this week.

Offer a rationalization for pitch to contact at the major league level.
Offer a reason as to the lack of power hitters they've had here.

I've already told you what I would have done differently--build a nucleus around power hitters and power pitchers. Draft them when given the chance instead of cute little outfielders they fall in love with like Ben Revere. Guy was a first round draft pick precisely because he fits the mold of how they want to play, not because of any innate talent he had. They are the only org in baseball that would draft a guy that high. I agree with you that they are "whiffing on too many picks." The obvious question to ask is why? I say it's twofold: they are looking to draft the wrong kind of players, and they are teaching hitting/pitching concepts that are incompatible with the skills needed for success at the major league level given the game's current environment. And you say what exactly, besides mocking the 'resident brain trust here' (I've certainly never considered myself that) and asking for what should be done differently while offering no solutions of your own?

[sunbone]

Offer a rationalization for pitch to contact at the major league level.
Offer a reason as to the lack of power hitters they've had here.

I've already told you what I would have done differently--build a nucleus around power hitters and power pitchers. Draft them when given the chance instead of cute little outfielders they fall in love with like Ben Revere. Guy was a first round draft pick precisely because he fits the mold of how they want to play, not because of any innate talent he had. They are the only org in baseball that would draft a guy that high. I agree with you that they are "whiffing on too many picks." The obvious question to ask is why? I say it's twofold: they are looking to draft the wrong kind of players, and they are teaching hitting/pitching concepts that are incompatible with the skills needed for success at the major league level given the game's current environment. And you say what exactly, besides mocking the 'resident brain trust here' (I've certainly never considered myself that) and asking for what should be done differently while offering no solutions of your own?

Your theory sounds great. A little easier said than done IMO. I wish the Twins or whoever had never come up with the phrase "pitch to contact" because it gives guys like you too much ammo. They are basically asking their pitchers to throw strikes and get deeper into games. If you think they actually don't want guys to strike guys out I think you are completely misreading that.
And this whole idea that the Twins don't want power hitters is ridiculous as well. Do they teach guys to hit the outside pitch the other way? Of course. But even your favorite guy JJ Hardy admitted that this notion that they are teaching guys not to turn on an inside pitch is a joke. They have had guys hit some home runs, but I'm sure in your world they got punished by the Twins for it. They haven't had a ton of power hitters get here, I agree. But it isn't like they haven't drafted any. And while agree on Revere as a talent, can you cite me your source on "precisely why" they drafted him and where other teams had him ranked? There are still quite a few teams that highly value speed and defense in center field. You seem to be privvy to a lot of conversations inside the Twins organization that I am not.

[gopherguy13]

33 is a very good win goal for them to aim for.

Junior Year my high school team could have won 50.

Could have won 50 games in a 162 game MLB season??

[Bash Brother]

33 is a very good win goal for them to aim for.

Junior Year my high school team could have won 50.

Could have won 50 games in a 162 game MLB season??

Yes

[Bushwood Gopher]

Offer a rationalization for pitch to contact at the major league level.
Offer a reason as to the lack of power hitters they've had here.

I've already told you what I would have done differently--build a nucleus around power hitters and power pitchers. Draft them when given the chance instead of cute little outfielders they fall in love with like Ben Revere. Guy was a first round draft pick precisely because he fits the mold of how they want to play, not because of any innate talent he had. They are the only org in baseball that would draft a guy that high. I agree with you that they are "whiffing on too many picks." The obvious question to ask is why? I say it's twofold: they are looking to draft the wrong kind of players, and they are teaching hitting/pitching concepts that are incompatible with the skills needed for success at the major league level given the game's current environment. And you say what exactly, besides mocking the 'resident brain trust here' (I've certainly never considered myself that) and asking for what should be done differently while offering no solutions of your own?

Your theory sounds great. A little easier said than done IMO. I wish the Twins or whoever had never come up with the phrase "pitch to contact" because it gives guys like you too much ammo. They are basically asking their pitchers to throw strikes and get deeper into games. If you think they actually don't want guys to strike guys out I think you are completely misreading that.
And this whole idea that the Twins don't want power hitters is ridiculous as well. Do they teach guys to hit the outside pitch the other way? Of course. But even your favorite guy JJ Hardy admitted that this notion that they are teaching guys not to turn on an inside pitch is a joke. They have had guys hit some home runs, but I'm sure in your world they got punished by the Twins for it. They haven't had a ton of power hitters get here, I agree. But it isn't like they haven't drafted any. And while agree on Revere as a talent, can you cite me your source on "precisely why" they drafted him and where other teams had him ranked? There are still quite a few teams that highly value speed and defense in center field. You seem to be privvy to a lot of conversations inside the Twins organization that I am not.

It's difficult for me to believe a pitcher can come up with this kind of quote on his own without it stemming from things the pitching coach & manager would be stressing. Scott Baker from 2010:

"Strikeouts are nice, but it's kind of hard work sometimes to strike a bunch of guys out," Baker said. "I think you want to be super efficient, and sometimes striking guys out that's not the case."

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2 ... sport-MLB=

JJ Hardy? I'm glad you brought him up. It's obvious he had a problem with the way the Twins taught hitting. He wouldn't have said anything otherwise. That he backtracked is irrelevant--he said what he thought, the media treated it as controversial and he didn't want to have to keep defending it. He had 25+ HR seasons before and after his year with the Twins. Completely coincidental I'm sure.

I remember Revere being a fairly shocking 1st round pick when he was taken. I've seen sources that he was a 2nd/3rd round guy and some as a 4th/5th round. Baseball America graded him out in the first 5 rounds.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draftdb/ ... .php?rnd=1

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5845 ... 1-5/page/3

[h8red]

Another 19mm this year may not have got them to the WS, but if spent right would surely make them more likely to compete for the division.

If you at least compete for the division you have a chance. There have been a few teams as wildcard to win it all.
At least make it interesting. We just saw how fun it was with the Gophers hockey to make the frozen four even though noone really expected them to. Even though it was disappointing to end the way it did, we'd all say we'd be happy with it again next year.

[gopherguy13]

33 is a very good win goal for them to aim for.

Junior Year my high school team could have won 50.

Could have won 50 games in a 162 game MLB season??

Yes

I don't want to call you out or anything, but high schoolers beating an MLB team 50 times?

Seems high to me, unless you're playing the Twins 162 times

[ScoobyDoo]

Drive for 135!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dxmnkd316]

The Twins problem isn't some systemic philosophy, as cute and popular as that theory seems to be among the "experts." It is pretty simple. Because of some poor drafting, injuries, etc. the farm system has lagged the last few years and if you aren't spending like the Angels, Yankees, etc. that will kill you. They for sure need to have some accountability in the scouting department for that. They just whiffed on too many picks. And the Mauer and Morneau contracts have killed any flexibility they may have had. I would still like to hear what the resident brain trust here would have done differently back then to avoid this. Those are the reasons this team is where it is at, not because Gardy coddles players, the team fines players for home runs or strikeouts, or whatever your pet theories are this week.

Agreed here, 100%

[Bash Brother]

33 is a very good win goal for them to aim for.

Junior Year my high school team could have won 50.

Could have won 50 games in a 162 game MLB season??

Yes

I don't want to call you out or anything, but high schoolers beating an MLB team 50 times?

Seems high to me, unless you're playing the Twins 162 times

You've apparently missed the portion of my post where I was jokingly suggesting that my high school team was better than this year's twins team.

Keep swingin, maybe you'll give 'em a cold.

[trixR4kids]

What you need is actual player development at the minor league level, especially with pitching.

Of course, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have added a piece or two more from FA without breaking the future bank.

They did add some FA pieces. Problem is unless you're one of those top 4 spenders, free agency isn't exactly a viable option.

Payroll is currently at 94 million. Even if they went up to 113 million (2011) they still can't afford a guy like Jose Reyes or CJ wilson (just throwing some of the FA names from this offseason out there). If their payroll goes up to being one of the top 4 teams or something then yeah they could splurge on some of those guys, but that ain't happening.

The Twins problem isn't some systemic philosophy, as cute and popular as that theory seems to be among the "experts." It is pretty simple. Because of some poor drafting, injuries, etc. the farm system has lagged the last few years and if you aren't spending like the Angels, Yankees, etc. that will kill you. They for sure need to have some accountability in the scouting department for that. They just whiffed on too many picks. And the Mauer and Morneau contracts have killed any flexibility they may have had. I would still like to hear what the resident brain trust here would have done differently back then to avoid this. Those are the reasons this team is where it is at, not because Gardy coddles players, the team fines players for home runs or strikeouts, or whatever your pet theories are this week.

Yeah I don't think guys like Morneau were forced to adopt some new system at the plate or anything. That guy was effective whenever he was healthy and was good at getting on base as well as hitting for power, basically what any good power hitter should be able to do. Mauer was a good power hitter too when he played in the dome and hitting homers was much easier. Then there were some other decent power hitters etc who seemed to be effective with the Twins.

As for pitching if some of what people are saying is true (that Garza got traded for not accepting the "Twins Way") then maybe you have a problem. But for the most part there weren't that many talented power pitchers to come through the system. I guess that comes down to drafting which is definitely Bill Smith's fault. After he drafts them though the coaches have to develop what they have and a lot of those guys kinda had to pitch to contact in order to be effective. Those guys can be effective as guys like Buerhle, Moyer, Wolf, and Marcum aren't exactly power pitchers but they (are/were) definitely better than league average on most years. That being said none of these guys are the ace you really build a rotation around. I guess my point is that I'm not sure how much a problem pitcher development is as compared to pitcher drafting. I'm thinking it's more of the latter.

The Mauer and Morneau contracts were a calculated risk. Mauer's was a bit high and they paid him it because he's the hometown boy or w/e. Morneau's is much better if he doesn't get hurt every damn year. Like you said though the biggest problem was drafting and player evaluation which is mostly where Smith struggled and now that he's gone it will be interesting to see what the Twins are able to do.

[Chris83]

The Twins problem isn't some systemic philosophy, as cute and popular as that theory seems to be among the "experts." It is pretty simple. Because of some poor drafting, injuries, etc. the farm system has lagged the last few years and if you aren't spending like the Angels, Yankees, etc. that will kill you. They for sure need to have some accountability in the scouting department for that. They just whiffed on too many picks. And the Mauer and Morneau contracts have killed any flexibility they may have had. I would still like to hear what the resident brain trust here would have done differently back then to avoid this. Those are the reasons this team is where it is at, not because Gardy coddles players, the team fines players for home runs or strikeouts, or whatever your pet theories are this week.

Not at all trying to be a dick here, but drafting poorly AND mis-managing your payroll are pretty big chips for the "Simple" category. Not arguing with you, but that's a HUGE chunk of what is vital to most sports franchises. If you draft poorly and your unwise spending hamstrings you and prevents you from being a player in free agency...well, welcome to 100 losses.

Unfortunately, regarding the Mauer and Morneau contracts, if they have hurt the team then the Twins organization messed up, period; doesn't matter what you or I thought they should have done at the time. The "right" decisions keep a GM around; the "wrong" ones? Just ask Bill Smith.

[trixR4kids]

It's difficult for me to believe a pitcher can come up with this kind of quote on his own without it stemming from things the pitching coach & manager would be stressing. Scott Baker from 2010:

"Strikeouts are nice, but it's kind of hard work sometimes to strike a bunch of guys out," Baker said. "I think you want to be super efficient, and sometimes striking guys out that's not the case."

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2 ... sport-MLB=

There are plenty of pitchers who strive to be efficient and strike people out, generate ground balls and not give up walks. Guys like Zack Greinke talk a lot about doing what they can to maximize efficiency.

"Bannister said Greinke has learned to adjust his pitching based on the advanced defensive statistics. Because of the size of the outfield at Kauffman Stadium and the strength of the Royals’ outfielders, relative to their infielders, it sometimes made more sense to induce fly balls."

“David DeJesus had our best zone rating,” Bannister said, referring to the Royals’ left fielder. “So a lot of times, Zack would pitch for a fly ball at our park instead of a ground ball, just because the zone rating was better in our outfield and it was a big park.”

Obviously Greinke isn't a pitch to contact guy in the negative sense that you mean it but he sometimes utilizes that strategy against pesky hitters that are tough to strike out.

JJ Hardy? I'm glad you brought him up. It's obvious he had a problem with the way the Twins taught hitting. He wouldn't have said anything otherwise. That he backtracked is irrelevant--he said what he thought, the media treated it as controversial and he didn't want to have to keep defending it. He had 25+ HR seasons before and after his year with the Twins. Completely coincidental I'm sure.

I read a little bit about this to get a context. Not really sure what to make of that. One thing to keep in mind is that he had a horrible 2009 season with the brewers, so it's not like he just came off a great 25 HR season with them before he came to the Twins (like you seem to be implying). His season with the Twins was actually better than it was with the Brewers the year before. Then he went to bandbox Camden and started using his slightly better discipline and hitting homeruns. Point being the Twins didn't like ruin him or anything.

I remember Revere being a fairly shocking 1st round pick when he was taken. I've seen sources that he was a 2nd/3rd round guy and some as a 4th/5th round. Baseball America graded him out in the first 5 rounds.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draftdb/ ... .php?rnd=1

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5845 ... 1-5/page/3

Ok so Bill Smith didn't know what he was doing. No way!

[gopherguy13]

33 is a very good win goal for them to aim for.

Junior Year my high school team could have won 50.

Could have won 50 games in a 162 game MLB season??

Yes

I don't want to call you out or anything, but high schoolers beating an MLB team 50 times?

Seems high to me, unless you're playing the Twins 162 times

You've apparently missed the portion of my post where I was jokingly suggesting that my high school team was better than this year's twins team.

Keep swingin, maybe you'll give 'em a cold.

Tap the brakes, Mole!

The lack of emoticons on the 'Yes' made me think you were serious

[dxmnkd316]

Mauer's was a bit high and they paid him it because he's the hometown boy or w/e.

While I agree with a lot of your post, I think you're mistaken on the reasoning here. They paid him, in a calculated risk, to appease the fanbase. You want to open up a new stadium half empty because your fanbase deserted you when you let your most popular player jump to the Red Sox?

[Ben]

I have to agree with what you said too, Bushwood.

To win consistently in the American League, you need to be able to score 5+ runs a game. The Twins thus far through 4 games have scored 6 runs total. Between that offensive ineptitude (.165/.252/.492) and the lackluster pitching (5.18/1.30), it looks like we're in for another long season. And if it weren't for a few bright spots scattered through the farm system, I'd say we were about to approach another dark era of Twins baseball similar to the 1990s. (Actually, that's still quite possible and looks to be probable depending on injuries and roster attrition going forward.) But at least we're pitching to contact with a terrible defense for support.

[dryfly]

Where do you set the over-under for wins? 62?

I'm setting it at 50 right now. Last years team was better and they lost 99.

1962 New York Mets, 40–120 (.250), and 2003 Detroit Tigers, 43–119 (.265)

Cleveland Spiders were 20-134.

Maybe they can shatter the futility record?

That alone would be worth watching - could be a team for the ages. Even Cub fans would be jealous.

[trixR4kids]

Mauer's was a bit high and they paid him it because he's the hometown boy or w/e.

While I agree with a lot of your post, I think you're mistaken on the reasoning here. They paid him, in a calculated risk, to appease the fanbase. You want to open up a new stadium half empty because your fanbase deserted you when you let your most popular player jump to the Red Sox?

I get what you're saying. But the money he is making has a similar cap hit as Pujols. It's one thing to make a calculated risk or even overpay someone based on intangibles (new stadium, need the star) but it's another thing to do this. I guess we'll see what he does this year but I don't think he's a 5 WAR player which is basically what he has to be to live up to his contract. And much of that value comes from being a catcher rather than a 1st basemen or w/e. In 2010 he was actually worth the money for that reason but with his new health issues that's likely not going to happen as much anymore and at this point the contract begins to look silly. The new stadium luster can only last so long especially when this contract is crippling the competitiveness of the team.

I have to agree with what you said too, Bushwood.

To win consistently in the American League, you need to be able to score 5+ runs a game. The Twins thus far through 4 games have scored 6 runs total. Between that offensive ineptitude (.165/.252/.492) and the lackluster pitching (5.18/1.30), it looks like we're in for another long season. And if it weren't for a few bright spots scattered through the farm system, I'd say we were about to approach another dark era of Twins baseball similar to the 1990s. (Actually, that's still quite possible and looks to be probable depending on injuries and roster attrition going forward.) But at least we're pitching to contact with a terrible defense for support.

There's a lot of teams that have looked like crap during this four game sample. The Red Sox, Yanks and Braves to name a few. At least give it a month or two with a healthy Mauer and Morneau before you denounce the offense. Not saying it's good or anything but panicking after four games makes you sound like the retards on sonsofsamhorn (redsox forum) who commit hari-kari after the team loses a game.

[tcswiz]

Every single good Major league pitcher is a"pitch to contact pitcher." It doesn't matter how hard he throws. Major league batters can hit you if all you do is throw fast.... Heck, if you throw a straight 95 MPH fastball I can hit you.

Read Sandy koufax, Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan, or any other pitching biography and they'll tell you they mastered the game by trying to get people out. Not focus on strikeouts. Which is what pitch to contact means (or means outside of MN).

It refers to the mental focal point as oppossed to some strategy that simply lets batters have their way. The goal on every pitch is a good low strike. That is all that you can and thus all you should try to control. Don't worry what the batter does; that's his deal.

I think people watch the Twins Pitcher's lack of success and somehow equate that with a pitch to contact philosophy. The Twins pitchers simply do it poorly.

They lack the talent to properly locate or the strength to stay healthy.

Also, People think TK played Small Ball? Really?

According to Bill James, Tom Kelly bunted less than any other Contemporary Manager (he was literally last almost every year in attempts). He also put on the fewest plays of any manager. The Twins hit a lot of HRs and 2Bs in 87 and 91. That's why we won, not small ball. I assume people think that because he pinch hit a lot (again more than any contemporary Manager) and used a stop watch to time the pitching deliveries?

[Beauner]

OK, first of all Billy Smith was in charge of the team's drafts for 3 or 4 years and drafted Gutierrez and Gibson to name a couple off the top of my head. None of the other players he would have drafted should be expected to be playing right now unless they were college seniors and even then, barely. So stop blaming him for his draft picks not being up with the team right now.

Second, the "pitch to contact" idea that people keep throwing around is being distorted. Obviously people know that pitchers aren't going to go out there and strike out 27 guys. If they did they'd walk just as many because they'd have to nibble on every single pitch and they'd be out of the game by the third inning. The "pitch to contact" idea, at least to me, means we're getting soft-tossing control guys that top out at 92mph with a changeup and a soft breaking ball. The kind of guys who, when they miss their spot, get the kicked out of them. That has been the Twins draft philosophy since the early 2000s when we had success with guys like Radke who had an elite changeup. That's why the Twins have four #5 starters and a guy like Liriano, who used to try to K everybody, and then changed his approach to the "relax on the fastball, focus on lasting deeper in the game" theory and now leaves fastballs elevated, has a lot less break on his slider, and hasn't had a changeup nearly as effective as it used to be. When Liriano finds the happy medium between lasting deeper in the game and getting nasty with hitters he can be elite. When he doesn't, he gets rocked.

Third, stop acting like Twins hitting coaches are "teaching" major league hitters how to hit the ball to the opposite field. By the time hitters get to high school they either know how to hit the ball the other way, or they stop playing ball when they graduate. The best hitters in the game are able to hit the ball with authority to any part of the field based on where the pitch is and where they make contact with it. If the pitch is on the outer half of the plate, a good hitter is going to wait until it gets deeper in the zone to start the swing and drive the ball the other way. Inner half, he's going to start his swing a little earlier and "pull it" (I hate calling that "pulling the ball" because IMO, pulling the ball means reaching out across the plate to "pull it" back across the field). It's called "hitting the ball where it's pitched" and it's the way 99.99999% of successful hitters hit. The way the Twins (supposedly, according to a few ex-players that people argue about constantly) try to teach the game is to hit behind runners (read: go the other way with it). That means if there is a runner on 2nd base and the pitcher (if he's smart) tries to jam a right handed hitter inside, the Twins want him to let that pitch get deep on him and treat it like it's an outside pitch and jam it to the right side to get that runner to third base rather than go with the pitch and try to drive it. The Twins seem content to try to play for 1 run rather than trying to play for a big inning, and have for a couple years. This is the biggest gripe many of us have with the way the team is run. The teams that annually run over us in the playoffs have the ability to play for one run if necessary, but are built to get a couple innings where they score 2-3 runs.

[h8red]

Mauer's was a bit high and they paid him it because he's the hometown boy or w/e.

While I agree with a lot of your post, I think you're mistaken on the reasoning here. They paid him, in a calculated risk, to appease the fanbase. You want to open up a new stadium half empty because your fanbase deserted you when you let your most popular player jump to the Red Sox?

I believe you are exactly right. They also were giddy knowing they were in negotiations with a player that both the Yankees and the Red Sox wanted to go after in Mauer. They were finally eating at the grown-up table instead of the kids table. That same giddiness got them in trouble when they paid a bunch of money to even be able to negotiate with Nishioka and then they actually signed him. I think the Yankees and Red Sox are still laughing that we signed the Nishmaster.

[sunbone]

remember Revere being a fairly shocking 1st round pick when he was taken. I've seen sources that he was a 2nd/3rd round guy and some as a 4th/5th round. Baseball America graded him out in the first 5 rounds.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draftdb/ ... .php?rnd=1

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5845 ... 1-5/page/3

You know what I don't get? How I got myself in the position of defending Ben Revere! How the hell did you do that? Did your buddy Cuddyer teach you some magic tricks before he left town?

[streakygopher]

Every single good Major league pitcher is a"pitch to contact pitcher." .... Heck, if you throw a straight 95 MPH fastball I can hit you.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[h8red]

I am feeling the Twins' bats will break out today!!!

They will score 7 runs but lose 13-7. Sorry.