Twins 2012 season

Chat about Football, Baseball or any other sports topic.

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Thu 7/26/12 5:54 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
sunbone wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:Yeah Hardy absolutely sucks. 3rd on his team in HR, 4th in RBI and 2nd in Runs. The kind of numbers we haven't had from a shortstop in over 30 years.


Batting .221, OBP of .264. Slugging Pct is .364. Wonder which cap he'll wear to Cooperstown.


You're starting to sound a little bit like the stat geeks who justify Joe's 'value' because he's a prolific walker. Not a good look on you.

Joe is having a good season and Delmon isn't that's all that really needs to be said about that.

The problem isn't that Joe isn't valuable it's that he's getting paid way too much.
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Fri 7/27/12 8:05 pm

Bremer is talking about how much Scott Diamond is like Cliff Lee.

PST4 is getting awfully crowded...
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Fri 7/27/12 10:45 pm

Both Morneau and Willingham hit 3-run HRs tonight. They were both mashed.
Diamond looked phenomenal. He threw 98 pitches today though, so he'll probably have to go to the DL tomorrow.
Formerly "Speedmerchant16"
User avatar
Beauner
Golden
 
Posts: 7146 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 2/12/05 3:59 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby rowshkex » Fri 7/27/12 11:00 pm

Beauner wrote:Both Morneau and Willingham hit 3-run HRs tonight. They were both mashed.
Diamond looked phenomenal. He threw 98 pitches today though, so he'll probably have to go to the DL tomorrow.


Diamond has been pretty stellar for most of the year... It's sad we don't have two more good pitchers. Our batting is actually solid and has brought itself up this year--our average is 0.002 points below the Yankees IIRC, and we're right in the middle of the pack for runs now this year. :(

Every time a star pitcher gets traded, I fume at the fact that management was unable to get ANYTHING for Santana...
is rice chex.
is not Raphael.
is not quite Rau.
is not a hockey mind.
is a 1 time GPL Pick 'Em Weekly Non-Winner Tiebreaker Champion.
User avatar
rowshkex
Super Vet
 
Posts: 2493
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Wed 2/23/11 6:07 am
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Sat 7/28/12 6:58 am

rowshkex wrote:
Beauner wrote:Both Morneau and Willingham hit 3-run HRs tonight. They were both mashed.
Diamond looked phenomenal. He threw 98 pitches today though, so he'll probably have to go to the DL tomorrow.


Diamond has been pretty stellar for most of the year... It's sad we don't have two more good pitchers. Our batting is actually solid and has brought itself up this year--our average is 0.002 points below the Yankees IIRC, and we're right in the middle of the pack for runs now this year. :(

Every time a star pitcher gets traded, I fume at the fact that management was unable to get ANYTHING for Santana...


Our offense has been better than we are used to the Twins having, but we are 15th in the major leagues in runs scored. Our team batting average is 10th, which is solid, and our team OBP is 6th, but our slugging percentage is 20th.
Our pitching staff is 29th in ERA, ahead of only Colorado :oops:
Formerly "Speedmerchant16"
User avatar
Beauner
Golden
 
Posts: 7146 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 2/12/05 3:59 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Slap Shot » Sat 7/28/12 10:35 am

The Twins offense is still not very good. They are 9th in R scored in the AL but 4th in their own division. Yes the pitching has been abysmal but let's not pretend the offense has been good enough to compete with the big boys even if they weren't last in pitching.
User avatar
Slap Shot
Legend
 
Posts: 6283
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 5/14/05 9:01 pm
Location: Brooklyn Park

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Sat 7/28/12 10:52 pm

Reports coming out that the Twins dealt Francisco Liriano to the White Sox.
White Sox send LHP Pedro Hernandez and SS/3B Eduardo Escobar.
Both have had a little MLB experience already. Hernandez and Escobar are both 23.

Escobar reportedly has been compared to Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Guillen on defense and is a career .270 hitter with a .351 slugging % in the minors. He only drew 139 walks in 577 games though.

Hernandez had 360 Ks and 78 walks in 428 IP, with a WHIP of 1.24 and an ERA of 3.42.
Formerly "Speedmerchant16"
User avatar
Beauner
Golden
 
Posts: 7146 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 2/12/05 3:59 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby rowshkex » Sat 7/28/12 11:12 pm

Beauner wrote:Reports coming out that the Twins dealt Francisco Liriano to the White Sox.
White Sox send LHP Pedro Hernandez and SS/3B Eduardo Escobar.
Both have had a little MLB experience already. Hernandez and Escobar are both 23.

Escobar reportedly has been compared to Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Guillen on defense and is a career .270 hitter with a .351 slugging % in the minors. He only drew 139 walks in 577 games though.

Hernandez had 360 Ks and 78 walks in 428 IP, with a WHIP of 1.24 and an ERA of 3.42.


shrug.gif
shrug.gif (1.08 KiB) Viewed 1148 times
is rice chex.
is not Raphael.
is not quite Rau.
is not a hockey mind.
is a 1 time GPL Pick 'Em Weekly Non-Winner Tiebreaker Champion.
User avatar
rowshkex
Super Vet
 
Posts: 2493
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Wed 2/23/11 6:07 am
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sec 16 row16 seat 16 17 » Sun 7/29/12 9:48 am

they should have took the bag of ball's and tape.
User avatar
sec 16 row16 seat 16 17
Golden
 
Posts: 1651 • Age: 53
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 1/31/11 4:07 pm
Location: patroling the blueline

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby streakygopher » Sun 7/29/12 10:44 am

Beauner wrote:Reports coming out that the Twins dealt Francisco Liriano to the White Sox.
White Sox send LHP Pedro Hernandez and SS/3B Eduardo Escobar.
Both have had a little MLB experience already. Hernandez and Escobar are both 23.

Escobar reportedly has been compared to Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Guillen on defense and is a career .270 hitter with a .351 slugging % in the minors. He only drew 139 walks in 577 games though.

Hernandez had 360 Ks and 78 walks in 428 IP, with a WHIP of 1.24 and an ERA of 3.42.

Never make a trade to help a division opponent. Apparently both sides feel that's true. :wink:

Liriano may go down as one of the best original talents the Twins ever had. But he went from supernova in 2006 to serviceable at best. Oh well...next!
User avatar
streakygopher
Addict
 
Posts: 8193
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Thu 12/30/04 10:49 am
Location: anywhere but the middle of the road

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby GopherFan85 » Sun 7/29/12 4:00 pm

streakygopher wrote:
Beauner wrote:Reports coming out that the Twins dealt Francisco Liriano to the White Sox.
White Sox send LHP Pedro Hernandez and SS/3B Eduardo Escobar.
Both have had a little MLB experience already. Hernandez and Escobar are both 23.

Escobar reportedly has been compared to Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Guillen on defense and is a career .270 hitter with a .351 slugging % in the minors. He only drew 139 walks in 577 games though.

Hernandez had 360 Ks and 78 walks in 428 IP, with a WHIP of 1.24 and an ERA of 3.42.

Never make a trade to help a division opponent. Apparently both sides feel that's true. :wink:

Liriano may go down as one of the best original talents the Twins ever had. But he went from supernova in 2006 to serviceable at best. Oh well...next!


Even if it helps Chicago, they only have him for a total of 62 games. After that he is a free agent in which they would have to spend possibly more than the Twins have paid him. Probably not but it could turn out that way. We have two prospects. The Twins should have got more but over the long term we could have these guys longer than the Sox have Liriano. So we'll have to wait to see how those two pan out. I can not even try to be PA like and try to put a positive spin on this.

Shall we start a debate on best and worst trades made by Terry Ryan?
User avatar
GopherFan85
Veteran
 
Posts: 648 • Age: 27
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 4/10/06 10:39 am
Location: Crookston, MN

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Sun 7/29/12 4:21 pm

GopherFan85 wrote:Even if it helps Chicago, they only have him for a total of 62 games. After that he is a free agent in which they would have to spend possibly more than the Twins have paid him. Probably not but it could turn out that way. We have two prospects. The Twins should have got more but over the long term we could have these guys longer than the Sox have Liriano. So we'll have to wait to see how those two pan out. I can not even try to be PA like and try to put a positive spin on this.

Shall we start a debate on best and worst trades made by Terry Ryan?


Well according to Baseball Prospectus, Escobar is the White Sox 7th best prospect and Pedro Hernandez was 15th.
Either way, Liriano's time with the Twins was up. I'm glad we got something for him, and got something that could end up helping the team build depth in the infield and the rotation.
Formerly "Speedmerchant16"
User avatar
Beauner
Golden
 
Posts: 7146 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 2/12/05 3:59 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby GopherFan85 » Sun 7/29/12 5:47 pm

Beauner wrote:
GopherFan85 wrote:Even if it helps Chicago, they only have him for a total of 62 games. After that he is a free agent in which they would have to spend possibly more than the Twins have paid him. Probably not but it could turn out that way. We have two prospects. The Twins should have got more but over the long term we could have these guys longer than the Sox have Liriano. So we'll have to wait to see how those two pan out. I can not even try to be PA like and try to put a positive spin on this.

Shall we start a debate on best and worst trades made by Terry Ryan?


Well according to Baseball Prospectus, Escobar is the White Sox 7th best prospect and Pedro Hernandez was 15th.
Either way, Liriano's time with the Twins was up. I'm glad we got something for him, and got something that could end up helping the team build depth in the infield and the rotation.


True Liriano's time was up with the Twins. Like you said I am glad we got something for him rather than walking (potentially) in free agency. I would think that maybe 1 prospect plus minor leaguer would have been better. Maybe this is all they could get but I doubt it.
User avatar
GopherFan85
Veteran
 
Posts: 648 • Age: 27
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 4/10/06 10:39 am
Location: Crookston, MN

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby rowshkex » Sun 7/29/12 6:44 pm

What was Carlos Gomez's rank when we traded for him...?
is rice chex.
is not Raphael.
is not quite Rau.
is not a hockey mind.
is a 1 time GPL Pick 'Em Weekly Non-Winner Tiebreaker Champion.
User avatar
rowshkex
Super Vet
 
Posts: 2493
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Wed 2/23/11 6:07 am
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby GopherFan85 » Sun 7/29/12 7:58 pm

rowshkex wrote:What was Carlos Gomez's rank when we traded for him...?


Well he went from us to "A" ball for the Brewers. We had him way overrated I guess.
User avatar
GopherFan85
Veteran
 
Posts: 648 • Age: 27
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 4/10/06 10:39 am
Location: Crookston, MN

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby hrbekroenick » Sun 7/29/12 9:20 pm

As highly touted as Frankie was and as much potential as he had, we barely got a squirt of pi$$ for him - no offense Erik Haula.
User avatar
hrbekroenick
Veteran
 
Posts: 823
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 2/11/05 5:18 pm
Location: Blaine

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dryfly » Mon 7/30/12 6:13 pm

GopherFan85 wrote: Maybe this is all they could get but I doubt it.


I was told earlier all we could get is a bucket of balls for him. so a couple low level prospects seems like we struck a pretty good deal. Unless the prospects are worth less than a bucket of balls.

Season is turning around - not only are we unlikely to lose 100 games [on pace for 93 as of right now]... considering where we were earlier we might even challenge 0.500 ...
User avatar
dryfly
Lifer
 
Posts: 3843
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 4/26/08 12:13 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Mon 7/30/12 7:26 pm

All these idiots at Target Field that boo A.J. I would take him back in a nanosecond.
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Mon 7/30/12 8:31 pm

Mauer is better.
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Mon 7/30/12 8:43 pm

trixR4kids wrote:Mauer is better.


Truth.

Also, I can't help but applaud the team for getting what they did for Liriano. Not entirely sure where they were going to get anything better. His time here was up. He's had his chances.
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back -H.Brooks

st8ofhockey: Is that a photocollage of a dick? Oh wait, that's Patrick Stewart

psych: haha, damnit dx, your phone is drunk again
dxmnkd316: f*** you, I can't stop any time I want
dxmnkd316: err wait

I don't think I'm always right. I just find it hard to operate on the opposite assumption.
Disclaimer: 95% of the things I post are jokes, sarcasm, or hyperbole. Thanks in advance for not taking things so literally
User avatar
dxmnkd316
Post Whore
 
Posts: 15286 • Age: 28
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 10/09/05 4:24 am
Location: Oakdale

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Mon 7/30/12 8:55 pm

Yeah the Whitesox like to try and work miracles with pitchers. See Jake Peavy. Good luck with Liriano though haha.
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby frozen4champs » Mon 7/30/12 9:05 pm

Bring your glove to Tuesdays game--- Liriano vs Blackburn :shots:
User avatar
frozen4champs
Golden
 
Posts: 2434 • Age: 46
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 2/11/05 10:52 am
Location: Sioux Falls

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Idontknow » Mon 7/30/12 9:59 pm

So now that Liriano is gone, can we send his personal catcher back to the minors???? Please????
User avatar
Idontknow
Golden
 
Posts: 445
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Tue 12/20/05 11:41 am

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Mon 7/30/12 10:28 pm

trixR4kids wrote:Mauer is better.


Give me AJ at 5M, a top of the rotation starter for 16M and a solid late inning reliever for 3M and you can have Joe. Deal?
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Mon 7/30/12 10:30 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Mauer is better.

... top of the rotation starter for 16M


Let me know when you find one of those available. I know a guy named Terry R... err, no that's too obvious, T. Ryan that is looking for one.
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back -H.Brooks

st8ofhockey: Is that a photocollage of a dick? Oh wait, that's Patrick Stewart

psych: haha, damnit dx, your phone is drunk again
dxmnkd316: f*** you, I can't stop any time I want
dxmnkd316: err wait

I don't think I'm always right. I just find it hard to operate on the opposite assumption.
Disclaimer: 95% of the things I post are jokes, sarcasm, or hyperbole. Thanks in advance for not taking things so literally
User avatar
dxmnkd316
Post Whore
 
Posts: 15286 • Age: 28
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 10/09/05 4:24 am
Location: Oakdale

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Mon 7/30/12 10:34 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Mauer is better.

... top of the rotation starter for 16M


Let me know when you find one of those available. I know a guy named Terry R... err, no that's too obvious, T. Ryan that is looking for one.


Pretty sure CJ Wilson signed a 5 yr $77M deal. And he's better than anything we have by a mile.
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Mon 7/30/12 10:43 pm

Pitchers:

Low Price, Free Agent, High Talent.

Pick two.
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back -H.Brooks

st8ofhockey: Is that a photocollage of a dick? Oh wait, that's Patrick Stewart

psych: haha, damnit dx, your phone is drunk again
dxmnkd316: f*** you, I can't stop any time I want
dxmnkd316: err wait

I don't think I'm always right. I just find it hard to operate on the opposite assumption.
Disclaimer: 95% of the things I post are jokes, sarcasm, or hyperbole. Thanks in advance for not taking things so literally
User avatar
dxmnkd316
Post Whore
 
Posts: 15286 • Age: 28
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 10/09/05 4:24 am
Location: Oakdale

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Mon 7/30/12 11:07 pm

dxmnkd316 wrote:Pitchers:

Low Price, Free Agent, High Talent.

Pick two.


What's your point? I answered your question directly. One that you posed as something that was impossible.

The top two free agent pitchers available last year were CJ Wilson and Yu Darvish, both who signed for less than 16M per year.
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Mon 7/30/12 11:17 pm

Ok, you let me know who you think we can get for $16M this offseason.
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back -H.Brooks

st8ofhockey: Is that a photocollage of a dick? Oh wait, that's Patrick Stewart

psych: haha, damnit dx, your phone is drunk again
dxmnkd316: f*** you, I can't stop any time I want
dxmnkd316: err wait

I don't think I'm always right. I just find it hard to operate on the opposite assumption.
Disclaimer: 95% of the things I post are jokes, sarcasm, or hyperbole. Thanks in advance for not taking things so literally
User avatar
dxmnkd316
Post Whore
 
Posts: 15286 • Age: 28
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 10/09/05 4:24 am
Location: Oakdale

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Mon 7/30/12 11:40 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Mauer is better.


Give me AJ at 5M, a top of the rotation starter for 16M and a solid late inning reliever for 3M and you can have Joe. Deal?

Nobody said that Joe wasn't overpaid.
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Tue 7/31/12 12:49 am

Who was catcher the last time the Twins won a playoff series? ;)

Who has won a World Series Mauer or AJ? ;)

Cue the outrage in 3...2...
If you disagree with me, that is aok by me :) :dup:

Another member of the "Never used the 'ahh' smiley" in a post since September 2010.

My name is not Dan...I am however a prick!
Handyman
Needs help
 
Posts: 11126 • Age: 33
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 4/14/03 12:24 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Tue 7/31/12 8:22 am

Picture me trollin in my 500 Benz...

:D
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sunbone » Tue 7/31/12 9:14 am

Bushwood Gopher wrote:All these idiots at Target Field that boo A.J. I would take him back in a nanosecond.


I have never understood this. AJ was a good player here. Then he got traded. He didn't leave via free agency. I guess Minnesotans require you to like it here so much that if you get traded you should immediately retire and stay here. The AJ trade was a pretty good deal for the Twins at the time, but we sure have missed having some guys who play with an edge.
User avatar
sunbone
Golden
 
Posts: 4142 • Age: 46
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 2/11/05 3:18 pm
Location: PWC

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris Eckes » Tue 7/31/12 10:07 am

I like AJ too. Joe Mauer is much, much, much better, but I've never understood the AJ hate.
Formerly known as The X Factor
Gopher Hockey: Minnesota's Pride on Ice
National Champions: 1974, 1976, 1979, 2002, 2003

Pride on Ice Blog: http://prideoniceblog.blogspot.com (click on the ads!)
Founding Member of the :ahhh: Fan Club - Est. 9/15/2010
2010 GPL Fantasy Baseball Champion
User avatar
Chris Eckes
Golden
 
Posts: 3882 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/02/07 9:04 pm
Location: S1, R1 (until 2012-2013...)

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby rowshkex » Tue 7/31/12 10:09 am

Part of the hate is because Pierzynski is a d-bag, not because of him leaving.
is rice chex.
is not Raphael.
is not quite Rau.
is not a hockey mind.
is a 1 time GPL Pick 'Em Weekly Non-Winner Tiebreaker Champion.
User avatar
rowshkex
Super Vet
 
Posts: 2493
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Wed 2/23/11 6:07 am
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Tee09 » Tue 7/31/12 10:13 am

rowshkex wrote:Part of the hate is because Pierzynski is a d-bag, not because of him leaving.


That was my impression as an outsider. He's kind of a dick.
User avatar
Tee09
Golden
 
Posts: 3926
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 1/15/07 9:40 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby sec 16 row16 seat 16 17 » Tue 7/31/12 10:37 am

i hope fransisco throws a no hitter tonight.
User avatar
sec 16 row16 seat 16 17
Golden
 
Posts: 1651 • Age: 53
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 1/31/11 4:07 pm
Location: patroling the blueline

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Hobey Baker » Tue 7/31/12 11:10 am

Handyman wrote:Who was catcher the last time the Twins won a playoff series? ;)

Who has won a World Series Mauer or AJ? ;)

Cue the outrage in 3...2...


I don't get the AJ hate in this town. He was one of us until the Twins traded him. He is durable as hell.
User avatar
Hobey Baker
Golden
 
Posts: 11048 • Age: 46
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 2/14/05 12:33 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Riff Raff » Tue 7/31/12 11:20 am

sunbone wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:All these idiots at Target Field that boo A.J. I would take him back in a nanosecond.


I have never understood this. AJ was a good player here. Then he got traded. He didn't leave via free agency. I guess Minnesotans require you to like it here so much that if you get traded you should immediately retire and stay here. The AJ trade was a pretty good deal for the Twins at the time, but we sure have missed having some guys who play with an edge.


My season ticket buddies and I discuss this just about every AJ at bat. AJ is part of a core of players (Torri, Jacque, Koskie, Dougie Baseball, Radke) that brought the Twins back from the abyss to be a consistantly competitive team. He busted his ass for us when he was here, and as you said - WAS TRADED!!!!! He didn't leave on his own. Not to mention that trade is probably going to go down as the best trade this team will have made in my generation. I would absolutely take his attitude (and his game) on this team right now.
Last edited by Riff Raff on Tue 7/31/12 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Riff Raff
Golden
 
Posts: 498 • Age: 40
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Tue 2/23/10 5:13 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Snowcool08 » Tue 7/31/12 12:02 pm

AJ is booed mostly for his attitude and not a whole lot to do with him playing here before. I do not get it and actually liked him when he was here. I think a group mentality is also to blame during the games. One fan starts booing and it just builds. I'm sure there are plenty of fans who have no idea why they are booing AJ, but still do it because everyone else is.

I am going to the game tonight and do plan on booing Liriano vigorously. He deserves to hear at least a little bit about the hope he destroyed, even if it was false hope.
User avatar
Snowcool08
Super Vet
 
Posts: 2129 • Age: 26
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Tue 3/06/07 3:20 am
Location: South St. Paul

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby streakygopher » Tue 7/31/12 9:36 pm

AJ just sunk the Twins...wasting a rare great outing by Blackburn. Twins had more than one chance against Liriano and then Crain late in the game....but AJ did what Mauer couldn't.
User avatar
streakygopher
Addict
 
Posts: 8193
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Thu 12/30/04 10:49 am
Location: anywhere but the middle of the road

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris Eckes » Tue 7/31/12 9:41 pm

lol @ the Mauer hate. One at bat by another player definitely is the best way to determine that he sucks
Last edited by Chris Eckes on Tue 7/31/12 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Formerly known as The X Factor
Gopher Hockey: Minnesota's Pride on Ice
National Champions: 1974, 1976, 1979, 2002, 2003

Pride on Ice Blog: http://prideoniceblog.blogspot.com (click on the ads!)
Founding Member of the :ahhh: Fan Club - Est. 9/15/2010
2010 GPL Fantasy Baseball Champion
User avatar
Chris Eckes
Golden
 
Posts: 3882 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/02/07 9:04 pm
Location: S1, R1 (until 2012-2013...)

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 7/31/12 9:42 pm

Honestly, has Mauer had even one hit that important at Target Field? I know he's much, much, much, much, much, much better than AJ so presumably there should be ample evidence of one....
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 7/31/12 9:54 pm

Chris Eckes wrote:lol @ the Mauer hate. One at bat by another player definitely is the best way to determine that he sucks


Nobody said he sucks. Why do you guys do this? That isn't the argument. Nobody ever advanced it as such.

You're right about one at bat. So let's look at their last seven full seasons, where they have averaged:

Joe 11HR 69RBI 101 games started at C per yr
AJ 12 HR 58RBI 122 games started at C per yr

Or their career numbers:

Reg season lines:
Joe .324/.404/.469 OPS of .873
AJ .284/.324/.427 OPS of .751

Career playoff lines:
Joe .286/.359/.314 OPS of .673
1 extra base hit in 35 AB; 1RBI

AJ .300/.372/.520 OPS of .892
5HR 17RBI in 100 AB + 1 World Series Ring

Let's all pretend for just one minute that he wasn't born in a St. Paul hospital--do you really think everything above says that Joe is that much better than AJ? I just don't see it. Particularly when you factor in how anemic Joe has been in the postseason vs how clutch AJ has been.
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby streakygopher » Tue 7/31/12 10:19 pm

Chris Eckes wrote:lol @ the Mauer hate. One at bat by another player definitely is the best way to determine that he sucks

Bottom line is Twins' hitters had Liriano in a tough spot late and then faced a spotty Crain - and failed both innings to secure the win.
User avatar
streakygopher
Addict
 
Posts: 8193
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Thu 12/30/04 10:49 am
Location: anywhere but the middle of the road

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby The Rube » Tue 7/31/12 10:32 pm

AJ is the perfect example of a guy who you hate because of his personality......unless he's on your side.
Also known as Brenthoven on USCHO.
User avatar
The Rube
Golden
 
Posts: 7602
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 4/10/05 11:01 am
Location: Chez Rube

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Tue 7/31/12 10:58 pm

BUT GUYS HE'S BETTER IN THE SMALL SAMPLE SIZE AND

































HE HAS A RING!!!!
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 7/31/12 11:04 pm

Very substantive trix. Did you read a single thing I wrote? Is 7 years enough sample size, or would you prefer to wait until they're in their 60s and collecting social security?
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Tue 7/31/12 11:08 pm

Yes I read what you wrote. You seemingly ignored the enormous OBP difference and then used RBIs and HRs to say they're equal. That's not even getting into the advanced stats that also illustrate my point. Not to mention park factors

I couldn't care less about the small sample size playoff stats. They're essentially meaningless. As is being surrounded by superior talent and winning a ring.
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Tue 7/31/12 11:24 pm

trixR4kids wrote:Yes I read what you wrote. You seemingly ignored the enormous OBP difference and then used RBIs and HRs to say they're equal. That's not even getting into the advanced stats that also illustrate my point. Not to mention park factors

I couldn't care less about the small sample size playoff stats. They're essentially meaningless. As is being surrounded by superior talent and winning a ring.


I didn't ignore the OBP difference--if I had I wouldn't have listed it. I just have a hard time accepting the notion that Joe is a "much, much, much better" ballplayer (you didn't say it, I believe Chris Eckes did) because he's essentially a way more prolific walker. That's the essence of their difference as it relates to OBP.

Your point about the park differences is fair and a good one. I also don't see AJ having as big of a problem hitting for power here, notwithstanding the very small number of games he's played at TF to be sure.

You honestly think AJ has been surrounded by better talent for most of his time in Chicago than Joe has here? I don't agree at all.
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Tue 7/31/12 11:50 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Yes I read what you wrote. You seemingly ignored the enormous OBP difference and then used RBIs and HRs to say they're equal. That's not even getting into the advanced stats that also illustrate my point. Not to mention park factors

I couldn't care less about the small sample size playoff stats. They're essentially meaningless. As is being surrounded by superior talent and winning a ring.


I didn't ignore the OBP difference--if I had I wouldn't have listed it. I just have a hard time accepting the notion that Joe is a "much, much, much better" ballplayer (you didn't say it, I believe Chris Eckes did) because he's essentially a way more prolific walker. That's the essence of their difference as it relates to OBP.

Your point about the park differences is fair and a good one. I also don't see AJ having as big of a problem hitting for power here, notwithstanding the very small number of games he's played at TF to be sure.

You honestly think AJ has been surrounded by better talent for most of his time in Chicago than Joe has here? I don't agree at all.

The year he won a world series he certainly was.

Having a high OBP and being a prolific walker is important. A walk is just as good as a single and really not that much worse than a double. By taking a walk you not only increase the likelihood of scoring runs that inning but it's also one less out. You also make the pitcher throw more pitches which likely adds to his fatigue and hopefully gets him out of the game faster. If you had a team of .404 OBP guys you'd be in great shape.

That's not to say swing for the fence types who strike out a lot are useless (see Adam Dunn), but in that case you better have good power numbers. If AJ's power was significantly higher than Mauer's then you'd have a point. But his career SLG% is also lower than Mauer's. AJ's power is better this year but that will probably regress at some point to career norms. It might not obviously, but that's the likely outcome.

So you have similar power numbers over their careers and a huge difference in OBP. To say he's a much much much better ballplayer this year is a stretch, but over their respective careers that probably isn't all that far off. During Mauer's worst year his wRC+ (weighted runs created compared to league average) was 100 (so exactly average). AJ over the Span of his career wRC+ is 92 (which is still good for a catcher).

So unless AJ is a lot better at blocking balls or is better at working with his pitchers then I really don't see how Mauer (this certainly could be, I wouldn't know) isn't significantly better (over the span of his career).
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Hobey Baker » Wed 8/01/12 12:02 am

Anyone asking why Gray in the 9th??

Anyone asking why Doumit was first pitch swinging when Liriano was struggling???

Twins scored more runs than anyone else in the AL in the month of July and had a 12-14 record.

A's went 19-4??? How is that possible???
User avatar
Hobey Baker
Golden
 
Posts: 11048 • Age: 46
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 2/14/05 12:33 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Wed 8/01/12 12:05 am

trixR4kids wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Yes I read what you wrote. You seemingly ignored the enormous OBP difference and then used RBIs and HRs to say they're equal. That's not even getting into the advanced stats that also illustrate my point. Not to mention park factors

I couldn't care less about the small sample size playoff stats. They're essentially meaningless. As is being surrounded by superior talent and winning a ring.


I didn't ignore the OBP difference--if I had I wouldn't have listed it. I just have a hard time accepting the notion that Joe is a "much, much, much better" ballplayer (you didn't say it, I believe Chris Eckes did) because he's essentially a way more prolific walker. That's the essence of their difference as it relates to OBP.

Your point about the park differences is fair and a good one. I also don't see AJ having as big of a problem hitting for power here, notwithstanding the very small number of games he's played at TF to be sure.

You honestly think AJ has been surrounded by better talent for most of his time in Chicago than Joe has here? I don't agree at all.

The year he won a world series he certainly was.

Having a high OBP and being a prolific walker is important. A walk is just as good as a single and really not that much worse than a double. By taking a walk you not only increase the likelihood of scoring runs that inning but it's also one less out. You also make the pitcher throw more pitches which likely adds to his fatigue and hopefully gets him out of the game faster. If you had a team of .404 OBP guys you'd be in great shape.

That's not to say swing for the fence types who strike out a lot are useless (see Adam Dunn), but in that case you better have good power numbers. If AJ's power was significantly higher than Mauer's then you'd have a point. But his career SLG% is also lower than Mauer's. AJ's power is better this year but that will probably regress at some point to career norms. It might not obviously, but that's the likely outcome.

So you have similar power numbers over their careers and a huge difference in OBP. To say he's a much much much better ballplayer this year is a stretch, but over their respective careers that probably isn't all that far off. During Mauer's worst year his wRC+ (weighted runs created compared to league average) was 100 (so exactly average). AJ over the Span of his career wRC+ is 92 (which is still good for a catcher).

So unless AJ is a lot better at blocking balls or is better at working with his pitchers then I really don't see how Mauer (this certainly could be, I wouldn't know) isn't significantly better (over the span of his career).


He's never going to be convinced Mauer isn't the worst player in franchise history. Best to leave it alone or have fun with it.

That and the Twins front office can do no right. I mean, it's so friggin' easy to get an ace free agent. I mean, the fact that the Twins haven't gotten one at $16 million is an absolute indictment of the front office. Everyone but the Twins has an ace at $16 million.
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back -H.Brooks

st8ofhockey: Is that a photocollage of a dick? Oh wait, that's Patrick Stewart

psych: haha, damnit dx, your phone is drunk again
dxmnkd316: f*** you, I can't stop any time I want
dxmnkd316: err wait

I don't think I'm always right. I just find it hard to operate on the opposite assumption.
Disclaimer: 95% of the things I post are jokes, sarcasm, or hyperbole. Thanks in advance for not taking things so literally
User avatar
dxmnkd316
Post Whore
 
Posts: 15286 • Age: 28
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 10/09/05 4:24 am
Location: Oakdale

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby psych » Wed 8/01/12 12:33 am

Hobey Baker wrote:Anyone asking why Gray in the 9th??

Anyone asking why Doumit was first pitch swinging when Liriano was struggling???

Twins scored more runs than anyone else in the AL in the month of July and had a 12-14 record.

A's went 19-4??? How is that possible???


...major league pitching?
User avatar
psych
Lifer
 
Posts: 3548
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Wed 8/05/09 10:00 pm
Location: Ten-I-see

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 8/01/12 12:41 am

dxmnkd316 wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Yes I read what you wrote. You seemingly ignored the enormous OBP difference and then used RBIs and HRs to say they're equal. That's not even getting into the advanced stats that also illustrate my point. Not to mention park factors

I couldn't care less about the small sample size playoff stats. They're essentially meaningless. As is being surrounded by superior talent and winning a ring.


I didn't ignore the OBP difference--if I had I wouldn't have listed it. I just have a hard time accepting the notion that Joe is a "much, much, much better" ballplayer (you didn't say it, I believe Chris Eckes did) because he's essentially a way more prolific walker. That's the essence of their difference as it relates to OBP.

Your point about the park differences is fair and a good one. I also don't see AJ having as big of a problem hitting for power here, notwithstanding the very small number of games he's played at TF to be sure.

You honestly think AJ has been surrounded by better talent for most of his time in Chicago than Joe has here? I don't agree at all.

The year he won a world series he certainly was.

Having a high OBP and being a prolific walker is important. A walk is just as good as a single and really not that much worse than a double. By taking a walk you not only increase the likelihood of scoring runs that inning but it's also one less out. You also make the pitcher throw more pitches which likely adds to his fatigue and hopefully gets him out of the game faster. If you had a team of .404 OBP guys you'd be in great shape.

That's not to say swing for the fence types who strike out a lot are useless (see Adam Dunn), but in that case you better have good power numbers. If AJ's power was significantly higher than Mauer's then you'd have a point. But his career SLG% is also lower than Mauer's. AJ's power is better this year but that will probably regress at some point to career norms. It might not obviously, but that's the likely outcome.

So you have similar power numbers over their careers and a huge difference in OBP. To say he's a much much much better ballplayer this year is a stretch, but over their respective careers that probably isn't all that far off. During Mauer's worst year his wRC+ (weighted runs created compared to league average) was 100 (so exactly average). AJ over the Span of his career wRC+ is 92 (which is still good for a catcher).

So unless AJ is a lot better at blocking balls or is better at working with his pitchers then I really don't see how Mauer (this certainly could be, I wouldn't know) isn't significantly better (over the span of his career).


He's never going to be convinced Mauer isn't the worst player in franchise history. Best to leave it alone or have fun with it.

That and the Twins front office can do no right. I mean, it's so friggin' easy to get an ace free agent. I mean, the fact that the Twins haven't gotten one at $16 million is an absolute indictment of the front office. Everyone but the Twins has an ace at $16 million.


You really are the king of straw men. What an asinine response. You post something as fact, it gets refuted in less than 5 minutes and then you can't let it go. So then you change the terms of the debate and start throwing around ridiculous false premises sprinkled in with your smartass commentary. Well done!

trix is making good points. You should try it sometime. And your memory isn't all that great either. I was about the only one here who defended the front office for the Santana situation.
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Wed 8/01/12 1:00 am

I did too actually...I remember a few of us getting in huge fights with Hobey over the Santana deal for a few reasons.

Since when is 100 at bats in the postseason considered a small sample size?

And lol at the "AJ had a better team around him" bs...I seem to remember a Twins team with Mauer that also had a Cy Young winner and the MVP (along with other talent) and he still did dick in the playoffs. That must not count though ;)

Mauer is more talented, AJ is more clutch...nothing wrong with admitting that.
If you disagree with me, that is aok by me :) :dup:

Another member of the "Never used the 'ahh' smiley" in a post since September 2010.

My name is not Dan...I am however a prick!
Handyman
Needs help
 
Posts: 11126 • Age: 33
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 4/14/03 12:24 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Hobey Baker » Wed 8/01/12 1:07 am

Handyman wrote:I did too actually...I remember a few of us getting in huge fights with Hobey over the Santana deal for a few reasons.

Since when is 100 at bats in the postseason considered a small sample size?

And lol at the "AJ had a better team around him" bs...I seem to remember a Twins team with Mauer that also had a Cy Young winner and the MVP (along with other talent) and he still did dick in the playoffs. That must not count though ;)

Mauer is more talented, AJ is more clutch...nothing wrong with admitting that.


Fights regarding Santana ... refresh my memory please!
User avatar
Hobey Baker
Golden
 
Posts: 11048 • Age: 46
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 2/14/05 12:33 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby dxmnkd316 » Wed 8/01/12 7:15 am

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
dxmnkd316 wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:
Bushwood Gopher wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:Yes I read what you wrote. You seemingly ignored the enormous OBP difference and then used RBIs and HRs to say they're equal. That's not even getting into the advanced stats that also illustrate my point. Not to mention park factors

I couldn't care less about the small sample size playoff stats. They're essentially meaningless. As is being surrounded by superior talent and winning a ring.


I didn't ignore the OBP difference--if I had I wouldn't have listed it. I just have a hard time accepting the notion that Joe is a "much, much, much better" ballplayer (you didn't say it, I believe Chris Eckes did) because he's essentially a way more prolific walker. That's the essence of their difference as it relates to OBP.

Your point about the park differences is fair and a good one. I also don't see AJ having as big of a problem hitting for power here, notwithstanding the very small number of games he's played at TF to be sure.

You honestly think AJ has been surrounded by better talent for most of his time in Chicago than Joe has here? I don't agree at all.

The year he won a world series he certainly was.

Having a high OBP and being a prolific walker is important. A walk is just as good as a single and really not that much worse than a double. By taking a walk you not only increase the likelihood of scoring runs that inning but it's also one less out. You also make the pitcher throw more pitches which likely adds to his fatigue and hopefully gets him out of the game faster. If you had a team of .404 OBP guys you'd be in great shape.

That's not to say swing for the fence types who strike out a lot are useless (see Adam Dunn), but in that case you better have good power numbers. If AJ's power was significantly higher than Mauer's then you'd have a point. But his career SLG% is also lower than Mauer's. AJ's power is better this year but that will probably regress at some point to career norms. It might not obviously, but that's the likely outcome.

So you have similar power numbers over their careers and a huge difference in OBP. To say he's a much much much better ballplayer this year is a stretch, but over their respective careers that probably isn't all that far off. During Mauer's worst year his wRC+ (weighted runs created compared to league average) was 100 (so exactly average). AJ over the Span of his career wRC+ is 92 (which is still good for a catcher).

So unless AJ is a lot better at blocking balls or is better at working with his pitchers then I really don't see how Mauer (this certainly could be, I wouldn't know) isn't significantly better (over the span of his career).


He's never going to be convinced Mauer isn't the worst player in franchise history. Best to leave it alone or have fun with it.

That and the Twins front office can do no right. I mean, it's so friggin' easy to get an ace free agent. I mean, the fact that the Twins haven't gotten one at $16 million is an absolute indictment of the front office. Everyone but the Twins has an ace at $16 million.


You really are the king of straw men. What an asinine response. You post something as fact, it gets refuted in less than 5 minutes and then you can't let it go. So then you change the terms of the debate and start throwing around ridiculous false premises sprinkled in with your smartass commentary. Well done!

trix is making good points. You should try it sometime. And your memory isn't all that great either. I was about the only one here who defended the front office for the Santana situation.


:wink:
The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back -H.Brooks

st8ofhockey: Is that a photocollage of a dick? Oh wait, that's Patrick Stewart

psych: haha, damnit dx, your phone is drunk again
dxmnkd316: f*** you, I can't stop any time I want
dxmnkd316: err wait

I don't think I'm always right. I just find it hard to operate on the opposite assumption.
Disclaimer: 95% of the things I post are jokes, sarcasm, or hyperbole. Thanks in advance for not taking things so literally
User avatar
dxmnkd316
Post Whore
 
Posts: 15286 • Age: 28
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 10/09/05 4:24 am
Location: Oakdale

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Wed 8/01/12 8:26 am

Handyman wrote:Since when is 100 at bats in the postseason considered a small sample size?

100? Try 39. Not even gonna debate "more clutch" based on 39 plate appearances. That's kinda silly.


And lol at the "AJ had a better team around him" bs...I seem to remember a Twins team with Mauer that also had a Cy Young winner and the MVP (along with other talent) and he still did dick in the playoffs. That must not count though ;)


To act like it's somehow Joe's fault that the team couldn't beat the Yankees in any of those series is laughable. Obviously he takes part of the blame but you make it sound like this is a tennis match and he's the only one to blame. When it comes down to it none of those teams were good enough or hot enough at the right time.
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby gopher wes » Wed 8/01/12 8:41 am

The Rube wrote:AJ is the perfect example of a guy who you hate because of his personality......unless he's on your side.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure that is why Twins fans now boo AJ when he comes back to Minnesota and, quite honestly, I don't blame anyone that does. That guy is a d-head. Maybe he was like that here, but I never noticed it.
I ♥ Golden Gopher Hockey :pelvic_thrust:
Playstation Network Username: gopher_wes
Golden Gopher Hockey 2011-2012: "We Found Love in a Hopeless Place"
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id=29 ... ef=profile
Image
User avatar
gopher wes
Lifer
 
Posts: 3719 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 11/06/06 8:29 pm
Location: Hometown: Plymouth Currently: Champlin

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris Eckes » Wed 8/01/12 8:53 am

There is no such thing as clutch
Formerly known as The X Factor
Gopher Hockey: Minnesota's Pride on Ice
National Champions: 1974, 1976, 1979, 2002, 2003

Pride on Ice Blog: http://prideoniceblog.blogspot.com (click on the ads!)
Founding Member of the :ahhh: Fan Club - Est. 9/15/2010
2010 GPL Fantasy Baseball Champion
User avatar
Chris Eckes
Golden
 
Posts: 3882 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/02/07 9:04 pm
Location: S1, R1 (until 2012-2013...)

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby team22tank » Wed 8/01/12 9:02 am

Chris Eckes wrote:There is no such thing as clutch


:confused2:
User avatar
team22tank
Super Vet
 
Posts: 2245 • Age: 30
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Tue 6/19/07 6:08 pm
Location: AV

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Gopherguy05 » Wed 8/01/12 9:06 am

Hobey Baker wrote:Anyone asking why Gray in the 9th??

Anyone asking why Doumit was first pitch swinging when Liriano was struggling???

Twins scored more runs than anyone else in the AL in the month of July and had a 12-14 record.

A's went 19-4??? How is that possible???



All the media did. All you have to do is read a game story to see that Burnett and Burton were unavailable last night and Gardy didn't want to use Perkins unless it was a save situation because if he used him last night he would not have been available for this afternoon's game.


Just going to take a guess....pitching??
User avatar
Gopherguy05
Lifer
 
Posts: 2524 • Age: 30
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 12/01/06 9:52 pm
Location: West St. Paul

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris Eckes » Wed 8/01/12 9:28 am

team22tank wrote:
Chris Eckes wrote:There is no such thing as clutch


:confused2:


Over a large enough sample size of "clutch" situations, players will always fall right around their career averages. I'm willing to bet that guys who are notoriously "un-clutch" (Joe Mauer) and guys who are notoriously "clutch" (David Ortiz, Derek Jeter) are performing at or around their career averages in clutch situations - the difference is much more in availability heuristic than anything IMO.

You can't claim past clutchness as a predictor of future clutchness. However, we can measure past clutchness, and if we do, there is a statistic for it, found below:

NUMBERS: David Ortiz - 0.90 "Clutch" rating over career, Derek Jeter - 1.4 "Clutch" rating, Joe Mauer - 1.94 "clutch" rating. Numbers from Fangraphs. So I guess Joe Mauer is more clutch over his career than Jeter or Ortiz have been.
Formerly known as The X Factor
Gopher Hockey: Minnesota's Pride on Ice
National Champions: 1974, 1976, 1979, 2002, 2003

Pride on Ice Blog: http://prideoniceblog.blogspot.com (click on the ads!)
Founding Member of the :ahhh: Fan Club - Est. 9/15/2010
2010 GPL Fantasy Baseball Champion
User avatar
Chris Eckes
Golden
 
Posts: 3882 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/02/07 9:04 pm
Location: S1, R1 (until 2012-2013...)

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Hobey Baker » Wed 8/01/12 11:44 am

Chris Eckes wrote:
team22tank wrote:
Chris Eckes wrote:There is no such thing as clutch


:confused2:


Over a large enough sample size of "clutch" situations, players will always fall right around their career averages. I'm willing to bet that guys who are notoriously "un-clutch" (Joe Mauer) and guys who are notoriously "clutch" (David Ortiz, Derek Jeter) are performing at or around their career averages in clutch situations - the difference is much more in availability heuristic than anything IMO.

You can't claim past clutchness as a predictor of future clutchness. However, we can measure past clutchness, and if we do, there is a statistic for it, found below:

NUMBERS: David Ortiz - 0.90 "Clutch" rating over career, Derek Jeter - 1.4 "Clutch" rating, Joe Mauer - 1.94 "clutch" rating. Numbers from Fangraphs. So I guess Joe Mauer is more clutch over his career than Jeter or Ortiz have been.


No chance ..
User avatar
Hobey Baker
Golden
 
Posts: 11048 • Age: 46
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 2/14/05 12:33 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris Eckes » Wed 8/01/12 11:49 am

Lolwut? There's actual DATA that goes into those statistics, not just someone watching one at bat with runners on base and saying "that guy ALWAYS strikes out".
Formerly known as The X Factor
Gopher Hockey: Minnesota's Pride on Ice
National Champions: 1974, 1976, 1979, 2002, 2003

Pride on Ice Blog: http://prideoniceblog.blogspot.com (click on the ads!)
Founding Member of the :ahhh: Fan Club - Est. 9/15/2010
2010 GPL Fantasy Baseball Champion
User avatar
Chris Eckes
Golden
 
Posts: 3882 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/02/07 9:04 pm
Location: S1, R1 (until 2012-2013...)

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Wed 8/01/12 11:52 am

Chris Eckes wrote:Lolwut? There's actual DATA that goes into those statistics, not just someone watching one at bat with runners on base and saying "that guy ALWAYS strikes out".

BUT GUYS MY GUT TELLS ME......
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 8/01/12 12:11 pm

Chris Eckes wrote:Lolwut? There's actual DATA that goes into those statistics, not just someone watching one at bat with runners on base and saying "that guy ALWAYS strikes out".


What are the assumptions that drive the data in this particular instance? Do you understand them well enough to determine if the stat is meaningful or not? Just curious.

Some of the assumptions behind the saber stats are rather dubious. Take WAR for example. There is no "average minor league baseball player" that can be input into a lineup when a starter isn't playing. But every starter in baseball does have a known backup. And that measurement of the given starter's Win Above Replacement should be calculated against a known quantity (i.e. his backup, which probably can't be done anyway because how do you quantitatively compute 'non-performance' for someone?) rather than a league wide fictitious benchmark. Here's what ends up happening to some of the highly prized and oft referenced DATA because of it: Players that excel at a position relative to their minor league replacement, but have a really capable backup, are overvalued according to their WAR (at the risk of further beating up on Joe Mauer--think of him this year with Ryan Doumit. Doumit has been extremely productive and there isn't that big of a dropoff offensively between the two. But my guess is Joe shows an extremely wide gap between his 'replacement' per the accepted WAR calculation, and has a high WAR because of it). Conversely, the Delmon Young of 2010, who was arguably our best offensive player that year, showed a relatively low WAR notwithstanding that his actual replacement was Rene Tosoni. Does anybody think that we weren't significantly better with DY in the lineup than Tosoni?

Data is only as good as the assumptions that drive it. I am highly skeptical of certain key saber stats because I think their assumptions are flawed to begin with.
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Chris Eckes » Wed 8/01/12 12:27 pm

Fair enough. I'm not sure that I buy using the player's actual backup on the roster to determine a stat that evaluates players on a leaguewide basis like WAR, but I can understand how WAR should be adjusted to determine that player's ACTUAL IMPACT on a team based upon the backups available on the team.

I've done enough reading on these stats to believe in their validity. If anyone else is interested, here's a link to an explanation of the "Clutch" stat (as well as more links to further delve into it if you'd like):

Fangraphs: Clutch
Formerly known as The X Factor
Gopher Hockey: Minnesota's Pride on Ice
National Champions: 1974, 1976, 1979, 2002, 2003

Pride on Ice Blog: http://prideoniceblog.blogspot.com (click on the ads!)
Founding Member of the :ahhh: Fan Club - Est. 9/15/2010
2010 GPL Fantasy Baseball Champion
User avatar
Chris Eckes
Golden
 
Posts: 3882 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/02/07 9:04 pm
Location: S1, R1 (until 2012-2013...)

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby rowshkex » Wed 8/01/12 12:41 pm

Data based on some informed (yet subjective) statistical analysis is much more appropriate and probably accurate than "insights" and perceptions. I'll take sabers any day over "consensus" and opinion... Although I, too, will remain skeptical. :-D
is rice chex.
is not Raphael.
is not quite Rau.
is not a hockey mind.
is a 1 time GPL Pick 'Em Weekly Non-Winner Tiebreaker Champion.
User avatar
rowshkex
Super Vet
 
Posts: 2493
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Wed 2/23/11 6:07 am
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby trixR4kids » Wed 8/01/12 12:56 pm

Bushwood Gopher wrote:
Chris Eckes wrote:Lolwut? There's actual DATA that goes into those statistics, not just someone watching one at bat with runners on base and saying "that guy ALWAYS strikes out".


What are the assumptions that drive the data in this particular instance? Do you understand them well enough to determine if the stat is meaningful or not? Just curious.

It takes a decent sample size for certain numbers to stablize. Generally power numbers for batters stabilize fairly quickly. For pitchers k/bb ratio will as well. 39 is extremely tiny. If a minor leaguer with 39 plate attempts is hitting like David Ortiz you're probably going to wait and see if those numbers are for real or not. Same is true in the other direction.

As for WAR nobody is claiming that it's a perfect metric but it does give you some idea of how valuable a player is. I don't really have time to argue the specifics of it but it doesn't really apply to the Joe Mauer discussion anyway. If you don't like WAR (which has different calculations among saber sites) then maybe use wRC+ to get an idea of how a player's offense relates to league average.
<GophDogFan> yep, so sad... you have a new moment, when your uncle gets mad because you got the best of him. the last straw was when i told him that UND's hockey program is like crystal pepsi: Nobody every liked it.
trixR4kids
Lifer
 
Posts: 4600 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sun 2/15/09 6:06 pm

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Five-HoleFrenzy » Wed 8/01/12 3:07 pm

"Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colors from our sight
Red is grey and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion"
User avatar
Five-HoleFrenzy
Golden
 
Posts: 671
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 4/12/03 10:45 pm
Location: St Paul

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Handyman » Wed 8/01/12 3:50 pm

edit: nevermind do not wish to further beating the dead horse. We will never agree..
If you disagree with me, that is aok by me :) :dup:

Another member of the "Never used the 'ahh' smiley" in a post since September 2010.

My name is not Dan...I am however a prick!
Handyman
Needs help
 
Posts: 11126 • Age: 33
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Mon 4/14/03 12:24 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Beauner » Wed 8/01/12 7:23 pm

trixR4kids wrote:A walk is just as good as a single and really not that much worse than a double.


No it isn't. It is significantly worse than a double, too.
4 walks = 1 run. 3 singles = 1 run. 1 double + 1 single = 1 run.
Walks to lead off an inning? Sweet. Great. Fantastic. As long as one of the guys behind you can get you to 2B and another guy can drive you in.
Walks with runners on base? Meh. There is a reason people IBB guys when a base is open. Because a walk is not nearly as good as a hit. I'm kinda surprised Sabermetrics guys are even arguing for that.
To equate a walk with a hit is one of my biggest pet peeves. Nobody is taking an extra base on a walk. EVER. People take extra bases on singles and doubles all the time.

OBP is important, but it isn't everything. You need to be able to drive runners in.
There's an old saying that you can't walk off the island. It works for baseball too.

As far as the clutch thing--I went to a baseball-statistics lecture thing in high school that found basically the exact same thing. The "clutch" hitting stat is bogus. It basically has to do with our bias in remembering clutch hits/chokes and how often they come up in "clutch" situations. If a guy hits .295 for his career, he'll probably end up hitting roughly .295 in clutch spots.
Formerly "Speedmerchant16"
User avatar
Beauner
Golden
 
Posts: 7146 • Age: 25
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Sat 2/12/05 3:59 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Twins 2012 season

Postby Bushwood Gopher » Wed 8/01/12 8:44 pm

Beauner wrote:
trixR4kids wrote:A walk is just as good as a single and really not that much worse than a double.


No it isn't. It is significantly worse than a double, too.
4 walks = 1 run. 3 singles = 1 run. 1 double + 1 single = 1 run.
Walks to lead off an inning? Sweet. Great. Fantastic. As long as one of the guys behind you can get you to 2B and another guy can drive you in.
Walks with runners on base? Meh. There is a reason people IBB guys when a base is open. Because a walk is not nearly as good as a hit. I'm kinda surprised Sabermetrics guys are even arguing for that.
To equate a walk with a hit is one of my biggest pet peeves. Nobody is taking an extra base on a walk. EVER. People take extra bases on singles and doubles all the time.

OBP is important, but it isn't everything. You need to be able to drive runners in.
There's an old saying that you can't walk off the island. It works for baseball too.

As far as the clutch thing--I went to a baseball-statistics lecture thing in high school that found basically the exact same thing. The "clutch" hitting stat is bogus. It basically has to do with our bias in remembering clutch hits/chokes and how often they come up in "clutch" situations. If a guy hits .295 for his career, he'll probably end up hitting roughly .295 in clutch spots.


This is extremely well put. Bravo Beauner. Bravo. :goodpost:
Bushwood Gopher
Lifer
 
Posts: 4078 • Age: 38
Likes: 0 post • Liked in: 0 post
Joined: Fri 3/04/05 4:29 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Other Sports

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Blueliner, Google Adsense [Bot], gopher6 and 2 guests

www.gopherpucklive.com v4.0 © 2013 Gopher Puck Live